Misused: Family Unfriendly Aesop

Hmm, maybe it wasn't discussed anywhere. I do fully support keeping it out of YMMV, but it should be discussed.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Nope, I don't believe consensus for de-YMMV-fying it was ever reached.

I'd like to apologize for all this.

I think Hard Truth Aesop shouldn't be YMMV to combat the "Aesop that's bad" misuse.

I agree that being YMMV may have contributed to the idea that it's for negative opinions, but I don't think that's why it was made YMMV to begin with. I think the intention behind making it YMMV was because the part about the messages going against conventional wisdom, and it was considered a value judgment that said messages are considered unconventional.

Despite that, that's not what the entry on YMMV.Home Page said; it specifically used the word "negative" and not "unconventional", so perhaps even that index's description was affected by Trope Decay. I don't know the full history of that index (especially since it was moved twice; first from Subjective Tropes and then from Main.YMMV to its current location), but maybe descriptions (specifically, text listing a summary followed by "YMMV because...") used to be optional, not unlike the other YMMV index (Audience Reactions), and someone added that descriptor based on its misuse rather than its actual definition.

...Regardless, I still think it should be classified as objective, since the fact that the works put forth these messages is objectively true, regardless of what people think of the messages in question.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:26:17 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Yeah, I think we should keep it off YMMV, since that was encouraging misuse.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

Do we need a remove from YMMV crowner?

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I'll go either way. To reiterate, I support removing it from YMMV so as to ensure that the message is one that the author meant to put in, not one that we made up.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

There is a difference between works put forth a message and what people think of the message. However, when these examples explain why the message of the work goes against conventional wisdom, they should describe the morals of the audience, not the audience response. That will be an easy way to tell what is the objective trope and what was written to complain about the work.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Are you trying to say that this should be YMMV, or that it shouldn't? All you did was take something I said out of context and post about what would make an Aesop-related trope objective or YMMV, without specifically stating whether Hard Truth Aesop (as in, the thread's subject) should be objective or subjective.

Edit: On the subject of out-of-context quotes, I'll use one to say why the old name and its YMMV status were problematic:

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:37:24 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I was saying objective, expanding upon your conclusion. That's why I also restated example context from page one.

This was stated in a prescriptive manner, and is an objective description This would be YMMV, and was contextually in opposition to Hard Truth Aesop.

---

I'd vote in favour of Trivia, but that's not on the table and I'm not interested in putting it on the table.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Apr 26th 2020 at 3:28:13 PM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Maybe Family-Unfriendly Aesop can be its own trope, allowing us to keep the examples once considered misused but also add true examples.

We don't need a complaint trope for "bad" aesops, though.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

On the one hand, I could see the value in a trope for "the author failed to stick the landing on this aesop." Kinda like Broken Aesop, but a bit broader.

On the other hand, judging by the misuse various similar aesop tropes (Family-Unfriendly Aesop, Broken Aesop) have gone through, it would immediately devolve into tropers complaining about aesops they don't like.

So probably not worth the effort.

So we've pretty much determined that Hard Truth Aesop is not to be YMMV.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I went through all the Western Animation examples and made HardTruthAesop.Western Animation. Should I redirect Western Animation to it or just cut the page?

I need to go through FamilyUnfriendlyAesop.Live Action TV and move legit examples to a HardTruthAesop.Live Action TV. After that we can make the call if it should be non-YMMV as it will be ready to replace examples.

We might need the crowner to be closed first, but we're at consensus either way.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I'd say do both, after moving stuff over, make the page a redirect, then Cut List it.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

Gotten though: Anime and Manga, Comic Books, Comic Strips, Fairy Tales, Fan Works, Films — Animation, Films — Live-Action, Literature, Music, Theater, Web Comics, Web Original folders.

FamilyUnfriendlyAesop.Live Action TV:

• Degrassi frequently has morals that are widely believed by teenagers but are unusual for adults, as well as presenting standard aesops in unconventional ways. This may be a huge part of the show's appeal to teens.
  • Emma is still hurting after being dumped by her boyfriend Sean, so she starts purposely getting him in trouble — from ratting him and his friends out when they steal from a diner, to snitching to the principal that he stole her dad's laptop (an accusation later proved to be correct). While Emma learns that she should just move on and stop trying to make Sean hurt despite his misdeeds, it also has the lesson being that no badly somebody treats you, snitching is way worse.
  • Paige has a completely horrendous experience at Banting University. The next season, she's dropped out and despite working a high intensity fashion industry job, she's a lot happier. In season 9, Emma drops out of Smithdale due to the same issues Paige was facing. Spinner never goes to college and works a standard 9 to 5 restaurant job and couldn't be more content. The lesson of "College isn't for everyone/you can be successful and happy without going to college" flies in the face of almost every show aimed towards young audiences.
  • Jane is being harassed by the new Degrassi football team since she's the only female player. The coach (who is also the principal) is turning a blind eye. She does the "right thing" - she tells another adult about the harassment but bullying worsens and she's actually assaulted in the hallway. It isn't until she makes a stand for herself (along with a handful of teammates behind her) that bullying goes away. This episode makes the case it's better to stand up against bullies yourself and that telling about an adult could make the bullying intensify.
  • In the episode "Eye of the Tiger", Spinner comes clean and finally confesses that he was responsible for driving Rick over the edge and shooting Jimmy. Jimmy then calls him cowardly and only saying this to make himself feel better, and never should have told anyone about it. Then he loses all his friends. Then he gets expelled. By contrast, Alex, who was also heavily involved in the paint and feather incident but never came clean, spending time happily around Jimmy who was left unaware. The explicit moral of that storyline was basically that sometimes doing the right thing doesn't come with consequence, not to mention the truth doesn't always set you free.
  • After a terrible bus accident, Miles's boyfriend Tristan is in a coma and his prognosis is bleak. While Miles is there for Tristan, he starts to get closer to Lola and they lean on each other and they end up having sex. Miles feels terribly guilty about cheating and when Tristan awakes, Miles tells him that he did cheat but because he was so distraught and lost without him and worried that he would regress back into opioid addiction that he may have actually committed suicide if Tristan never woke up. Tristan absorbs this and after finding out that Miles didn't actually fall in love in Lola, he is fine with Miles having someone there for him and they pick up their relationship from there. Sometimes there are situations where infidelity can exist in a gray area and not always the most devastating thing that can happen in a relationship.

These legit?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 20th 2020 at 8:12:12 AM

I understand the basic premise of this trope (uncomfortable yet necessary lessons), but unless you aspire to be a Darwinistic Complete Monster, I feel iffy about this example at best, and utterly disgusted at worst:

• Marquis de Sade's novels all had messages like these. All of them involve breaking speeches and Hannibal lectures from the libertines toward their victims, or would-be libertines who have cold feet about their acts. Crime is a virtue, the strong naturally prey on the weak, God, objective morality, free will and kindness are just illusions etc.

Edited by KJsixteen on May 20th 2020 at 10:42:28 AM

Google Snake Game.

That's a general example anyway and doesn't explain itself well. I'd feel no sadness if it got cut.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I'd be happy to do that, although there's already a lock.

Google Snake Game.

You need to request it at the Locked Pages thread; I did it for ya.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Right, also thanks.

Google Snake Game.

I feel like Hard Truth Aesop, as currently conceived, has an implicit requirement that the Aesop be true, or at least that the audience perceives it as true, even if they find its truth uncomfortable. This requirement seems untenable to me. After all, Aesops that contradict common-sense morality are likely to be controversial precisely because they do so. One audience member's hard truth is another's dangerous falsehood, and while not everyone may argue that a Hard Truth Aesop is wrong, some of them probably will. (I mean, the Hard Truth Aesop page lists Aesop's own The Farmer and the Snake as an example, and just look at how that story's become indirectly politicized in the US recently [1].)

Considering this, I think we should think of the "truth" part of Hard Truth Aesop as indicating merely that the author thought it was true, and leave the requirements for audience acceptance and actual truth flexible. This would also help to distance Hard Truth Aesop from its YMMV origins, and it would allow us to list any and all (attempted) examples of the trope without fear of implicitly endorsing Aesops that we're not okay with (such as the above-mentioned Marquis de Sade's novels).

Edited by 742mph on May 20th 2020 at 11:37:02 AM