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Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#1: Mar 7th 2020 at 12:15:58 AM

I always thought that The Dragon is the Big Bad's Number Two, however some tropers believe it to be "penultimate challenge". Which one is correct?

The Square Peg, Round Trope page seems to support the first definition:

  • The Dragon trope was used incorrectly so many times that its definition had to be changed. It originally referred to a minion of the Big Bad who was stronger than the Big Bad, representing more of a physical challenge to the protagonist while the Big Bad represented a mental one. Too many tropers took this to mean "the Big Bad's right-hand man, regardless of whether he/she is actually stronger than the Big Bad."

This entry was added by scarletwave on Sep 13th 2011.

The Laconic for the trope states: "The Big Bad's Number Two; often the penultimate challenge that The Hero must face before confronting the Big Bad."

The Laconic was "The Big Bad's right hand/second-in-command." since at least 2012. The part about "penultimate challenge" was added in 2015 by High Crate, changing the definition entirely, and was further edited by other tropers later, restoring the original meaning (as "often" is not "always"). See the edit history.

If we check the edit history of the trope itself, in 2013 the trope was described as follows: "The Dragon is the Big Bad's top enforcer." and "The heroic version of this trope is Number Two or The Lancer." There was also a line "defeating the Big Bad almost always requires the hero to overcome the Dragon first." Almost always is not always.

This meaning stayed until October 2015, when eyebones changed it to be the opposite: "A person or monster The Hero has to get past to get at the Big Bad. The Big Bad's top enforcer, usually, but not necessarily."

To sum up: 1. There are currently two competing definitions of The Dragon. 2. If the "penultimate challenge" one is correct, there is a need for a Major clean-up because I'd say at least 75% of the examples I've seen are just "the Big Bad's right-hand man".

What do we do about all this?

PS I'm unable to find any discussion thread that would support those changes made in 2015.

Edited by Asherinka on Mar 7th 2020 at 11:20:01 PM

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#2: Mar 7th 2020 at 12:20:50 AM

Obligatory link to The Dragon's TRS thread, which is still open and has yet to finish anything.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#3: Mar 7th 2020 at 12:46:20 AM

Oh ty :) It seems I'm late to the party.

Edited by Asherinka on Mar 7th 2020 at 11:49:11 PM

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#4: Mar 7th 2020 at 12:47:57 AM

No worries, the TRS thread needs more attention anyway :)

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
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