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Not Tropeworthy: Fantasy Axis Of Evil

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Spark9 Gentleman Troper! from Castle Wulfenbach Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Gentleman Troper!
#1: Feb 25th 2020 at 12:27:51 AM

We've recently cut the Five Bad Band trope, and for similar reasons we should take a look at Fantasy Axis of Evil as well.

This is the Evil Counterpart of Five Races, and asserts there are five "bad guy" races (i.e. evil strong folks, evil magical folks, evil humans, evil diplomatic folks, and evil sneaky folks). The problem is if you look over the examples, almost everything is shoehorned; because works, as a whole, don't have five evil races: they either don't have five races in the first place, or races aren't "always good" or "always evil".

From the examples,

  • Requiem Vampire Knight - more than five races, cherrypicking the five that fit best.
  • Star Wars - cherrypicking from more than five, plus Sith aren't a race, plus one is from the Expanded Universe, and self-admittedly one example doesn't fit.
  • Lord of the Rings - "it works if you count Nazgul and barrow-wights together as one race"... yeah, right.
  • Memory Sorrow and Thorn - only four races
  • Harry Potter - admits that races aren't "always good" or "always evil" in this setting so it doesn't work, but "we could have..."
  • Time Scout - only one race given
  • Discworld - "could arguably count"...
  • Belgariad - more than five races, cherrypicked
  • Wheel of Time - ok this one seems to fit
  • Mistborn - more than five races, cherrypicked
  • Mithgar - more than five races, cherrypicked
  • The Consult - more than five races, cherrypicked

...and so forth.

It might be possible to clean up the description to something tropeworthy and cut 90% of the examples, but I'm not really seeing it. I think this is simply not a trope, and we should cutlist it.

Edited by Spark9 on Feb 25th 2020 at 12:28:09 PM

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#2: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:46:42 PM

Sorry for the wait, ~Spark9.

While we would prefer more samples, the samples given do indicate shoehorning, so giving this thread a chance.

I'm down with cutting.

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GastonRabbit One album, Please (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I've got the brains, you've got the looks. Let's make lots of money.
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WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#6: Jun 4th 2020 at 8:27:54 PM

Apparently, this trope only has 80 wicks, and about 1/4 of them are just indexes.

Yeah, this is a pointless page.

Cut.

Jokubas Since: Jan, 2010
#7: Jun 5th 2020 at 4:11:53 AM

These definitely feel familiar as popular archetypes for a game, especially an MMO (I was thinking WildStar, but it's not even an example), to draw from to fill out a faction, but it's not much of a trope in the way it's being presented.

Edited by Jokubas on Jun 5th 2020 at 4:16:32 AM

Libraryseraph Fearless at the core... from Canada (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
Fearless at the core...
#8: Jun 5th 2020 at 8:44:18 AM

Cut it. Does Five Races need a look too?

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Serac she/her Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
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GastonRabbit One album, Please (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I've got the brains, you've got the looks. Let's make lots of money.
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#10: Jun 9th 2020 at 4:20:30 AM

Made a crowner since it's been long enough, and since there aren't too many wicks either way.

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Spark9 Gentleman Troper! from Castle Wulfenbach Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Gentleman Troper!
#12: Jun 11th 2020 at 7:30:25 AM

[up][up][up][up] Yes, Five Races should also have a thread. It appears that most examples on that page have way more than five races and just cherrypick the five that "fit best", or list multiple races under each of the "five".

Even the so-called Trope Maker (Tolkien) doesn't fit, as the entry argues with itself whether it should be elves/dwarves/ents/men/hobbits, or elves/dwarves/ents/men/Tom Bombadil, or elves/dwarves/numenoreans/men/hobbits, or two other options with 4 and 7 categories respectively. Yeah, that's a big mess.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#13: Jun 11th 2020 at 7:41:02 AM

[up]TBH, I almost never see a High Fantasy setting with exactly 5 races, and I'm pretty sure Middle Earth has more than 5, especially if you count the Ainur as separate races. Both Five Races and Fantasy Axis of Evil seems to be derivatives of Five-Man Band that really has no real pattern in fiction.

Spark9 Gentleman Troper! from Castle Wulfenbach Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Gentleman Troper!
#14: Jun 11th 2020 at 7:51:59 AM

[up] Yes, that. Even the Belgariad, a high fantasy setting with 5 as its Arc Number, has more than five races. And yes, Tolkien also has more than five (13, according to its wiki, not counting subraces).

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#15: Jun 11th 2020 at 9:48:35 AM

I think a Stock Fantasy Races page would be better for both Five Races and Fantasy Axis of Evil, to be honest. I think that has been attempted in TLP a few times, but it may have been shot down due to redundancy with Five Races.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#16: Jun 11th 2020 at 8:11:57 PM

Stock Fantasy Races seems like a much better idea to cover both tropes.

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#19: Jun 11th 2020 at 8:44:39 PM

[up]huh, that explicitly covers non-monsters.

that seems too broad to me, especially in light of the name. id split it off if it were up to me.

Edited by ChloeJessica on Jun 11th 2020 at 9:15:17 AM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#20: Jun 11th 2020 at 8:55:39 PM

[up][up]It would be a subset that would do what Five Races and Fantasy Axis of Evil are trying to do. By "fantasy" here it is referring to High Fantasy (think Lord of the Rings). An elf would be a stock fantasy race, a vampire wouldn't. Races also implies a sentient people, while that index covers monster species.

Edited by Synchronicity on Jun 11th 2020 at 10:57:04 AM

Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#21: Jun 11th 2020 at 9:31:01 PM

I agree that Stock Fantasy Races would be a more appropriate trope to cover what Five Races and Fantasy Axis of Evil are trying to get at.

For example, Human-like, Elf-like and Dwarf-like creatures are almost always a given in game settings due to their Physical, Mystical, Technological approach. Halflings are often included for a thief-based class and so on.

There are specific "types" of races that is almost guaranteed to show up in High Fantasy settings, which we can trope. They're just not limited to the Five Races and/or Fantasy Axis of Evil groupings.

Edited by Adept on Jun 12th 2020 at 12:34:17 AM

Spark9 Gentleman Troper! from Castle Wulfenbach Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Gentleman Troper!
#22: Jun 12th 2020 at 1:24:06 AM

It strikes me that our article on Standard Fantasy Setting already covers what the standard races are (and yes, by linking to various "Our X Are Different" articles). I suggest we expand on that.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#23: Jun 12th 2020 at 9:36:50 AM

I think we getting a bit carried away with the discussion of Five Races. I don't think having exactly five is the most important aspect of the trope, it's about fantasy races fitting certain characteristics. While there may be misuse, I'd argue that there are many valid examples out there as well, and Tolkein's races do fit the characteristics even if there are more than five when including more minor races. I would like to see a wick check to demonstrate usage, and this thread shouldn't be going around cutting other tropes wholesale.

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WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
#24: Jun 12th 2020 at 9:39:42 AM

[up] Then why call it "Five Races"? Isn't that a bit like saying "Oh, Five-Man Band doesn't need 5 members that fit into those exact positions..." What you're saying is contradicted by the title.

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ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#25: Jun 12th 2020 at 1:15:59 PM

[up]agreed. if it's not necessary to have exactly five, it shouldn't be in the trope name.

PageAction: FantasyAxisOfEvil
9th Jun '20 4:19:20 AM

Crown Description:

What should be done with Fantasy Axis Of Evil?

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