Hindsight Cleanup

The Jennifer's Body examples are not only actor garbage, they're also very loose connections. Zap them.

Sandbox help wanted.

These one actually got posted in the Hindsight main page for Live-Action Films, and a lot of these sounds really forced.

1* The events of Alien became this in 2017 with the passing of John Hurt, who played Kane, being the first of the actors to play the humans to die (he was preceded by the actor who played the alien, Bolaji Badejo). It got worse later the same year as events mirrored the movie even more when Harry Dean Stanton, like his character Brett, was the second to pass on. — Sounds like Actor Garbage. Also, Hurt is a Chronically Killed Actor, does the Hindsight thing really apply?

2* Arthur (2011): The remake has Russell Brand playing a funny alcoholic (just like Dudley Moore in the original). Three and a half months later, his friend Amy Winehouse died trying to kick an alcohol addiction. Brand (who himself was a drug, alcohol, and sex addict back when he was only famous in the United Kingdom) is now trying to get Hollywood to help celebrities fight their addictions. — I checked, and this movie didn't even have anything to do with Amy Winehouse. Sounds really shoehorned.

3* A Beautiful Mind: John and Alicia Nash were both killed in a car accident in 2015, fourteen years after the film was made, while he was coming home from winning the Abel Prize, adding a rather sour grace note to the uplifting ending of his winning the Nobel Prize. It also makes the hallucinated car chase pretty hard to watch. — Sounds kinda iffy.

4* In the 2000 movie Chocolat, there's a plot thread involving Peter Stormare's character abusing his wife, played by Lena Olin. About a decade later, one of the movie's leads, Johnny Depp, and his wife, Amber Heard, each alleged that the other abused them. — Another Johnny Depp-slash-Amber Heard reference. For the record, from what I recall Depp is like the sixth most important character in the film, and was not even the lead.

5* The Dark Knight Trilogy:

• The films feature many murderous characters, which is made more disturbing by a real-life shooting at the Aurora, Colorado premiere of its third installment that left 12 people dead and dozens injured. — There are literally HUNDREDS of movies filled with murderous characters, made before Chris Nolan's TDK series. Shoehorn.

• Also, the following paragraph:
  • Only one day after this film premiered, came the Grand Finale for Avatar: The Last Airbender. In The Dark Knight, Alfred tells Bruce "Some men just want to watch the world burn." (though this line featured prominently in a teaser trailer a year prior). The very next day audiences got to see Fire Lord Ozai trying to burn the entire Earth Kingdom to the ground. It was like they knew the movie would be premiering on the same weekend! (On a lighter note, Fire Lord Ozai is voiced by Mark Hamill, who voiced the Joker in Batman: The Animated Series.) — Really, REALLY tenuous connection.

6* In both It (2017) and It: Chapter Two, there is a heavy emphasis placed on how Mike's parents screamed for help and struggled to escape during the house fire that killed them. This becomes harder to watch given that Chapter Two opened just days after a horrific and well-publicized fire on a dive boat that claimed the lives of 34 people trapped aboard. — The RL incident is a boat fire while the movie example has a house fire. Also, objects getting destroyed in big fires happens ALL the time IRL.

7* Muppets Most Wanted: Constantine, an evil Russian frog, frames Kermit for a crime he committed and takes his place, sending him to prison. Matt Vogel, Constantine's performer, is also the new puppeteer for Kermit. — Why / How is this Harsh, anyway? Matt Vogel is still alive and for all purposes, Vogel got even more money in real life since he can continue his career as a performer. Maybe this is an Actor Allusion, but Harsher?

8* Victor Salva, director of the Monster Clown film Clownhouse, was later convicted of having molested the film's underage male star. After serving prison time, Salva went on to direct Jeepers Creepers, which featured a monster who appears to target teenage boys. The monster is at one point seen identifying a potential victim by rifling through his laundry and sniffing his underwear. — That sounds a bit forced. I get it that the studios decide to re-hire Salva despite his prison sentence, but I fail to see how the audience should see that as example of "Hindsight".

9* Spider-Man 3:

• Executive Meddling by Avi Avad forced Sam Raimi to replace the Vulture with Venom. The same Vulture who'd go on to be the Big Bad of Spider-Man: Homecoming. — Not really Harsher, sounds more like Refitted for Sequel.

10* Stand by Me, the death of River Phoenix in Real Life in contrast with that of his character is hard to miss, especially when he disappears when walking away. It's also notable that he was initially cast in Brad Pitt's role in A River Runs Through It, which is doubly startling considering his first name is in the title. — Sounds like Actor Mortality. The second sentence is especially hard to analyze. Like, what did I just read?

11* Star Wars:

• On a meta-level, George Lucas was soundly mocked by having Padme die of a "broken heart" after giving birth to the twins. But in December 2016, after Carrie Fisher died from a massive heart attack, her mother Debbie Reynolds, died a day later from a stroke that was at least partly chalked up to grief. — Death by Despair is such a common thing IRL that we literally have a trope for it. Cut?

12* In Superman: The Movie, Jonathan Kent dies of a heart attack while following Clark to his barn. Twenty-eight years after the film's release, Jonathan's actor, Glenn Ford, would also die of a heart attack. — Another Actor Mortality Garbage. Also I checked and Glenn Ford died at age 75; elderly people dying of heart attacks is all-too common.

13* The ending of the movie Targets is a psychopath shooting people at a drive-in theater. A scene that became even more disturbing after the Aurora multiplex shooting. — The shooting takes place nearly 50 years after the movie's premiere. FIFTY.

There are a ton of other examples on the list right now that I haven't really gone through, and a few that seems to fit better under "Funny Aneurysm" Moment. Anyway, permission to cut them all?

EDIT: Added numbers to ease navigation.

Edited by RobertTYL on Apr 16th 2021 at 3:31:27 AM

From YMMV.Pixar.

• Harsher in Hindsight:
  • Joe Ranft's sad death in a car crash in 2005 becomes even sadder when you realize that Disney supremo Wolfgang "Woolie" Reithermann, a mentor to some of the animators including Lasseter, died the exact same way 20 years prior (and just for good measure, former Disney studio chief and Renaissance alumni Jeffrey Katzenberg nearly died the same way as Ranft and Reithermann 10 years after Ranft's death and 30 years after Reithermann's, but he only broke his arm).
  • Pixar films' complete lack of female protagonists until Brave, coupled with John Lasseter at first dismissing the criticism as "We're a bunch of guys!" and Brenda Champan being fired midway through that movie's production, feel a lot more petty when you learn that, in addition to sexual misconduct, Lasseter's willful ignorance on the matter was the main reason women and minorities were regularly denied the opportunities to make such films (tellingly, Pixar's short films since his firing have featured more noticeably diverse leads).
  • Many Pixar films (including Toy Story 2 and 3, Monsters, Inc., The Incredibles, Up, and Coco) feature seemingly-friendly mentor, authority, or idol figures who end up antagonizing or betraying those who once looked up to them. For many up-and-coming animators who look up to John Lasseter as their inspiration for getting into the field, seeing him eventually be held responsible for inappropriate sexual behavior in the workplace, along with stories coming forward of how the good-natured, Hawaiian-shirt-wearing nerd he presented himself as was basically his version of Walt Disney's "Uncle Walt" persona (ie, a more PR-friendly presentation of someone who was more aggressive in real life), feels like just as much of a betrayal of their trust.

• Creator mortality. It's not even a fictional work resembling his death, it's just two similar deaths, and in a fairly common manner as well. Sad, but not more significant than comparing it to any other car crash.
• Might be valid but might be a ROCEJ violation.
• I think that's too general, and not a Pixar-exclusive trend in film (we even have a trope for it).

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Might need to slow down a bit, these examples keep piling up and we're not getting consensus on what to do with them (I'll reply to the previous examples later).

Any thoughts on the Young Justice examples I brought up here?

Sandbox help wanted.

Found on YMMV.Soul (apologies if this was already brought up, I don't frequently post here):

• "Funny Aneurysm" Moment:
  • The fact that 22 had hundreds of famous mentors who ended up frustrated and annoyed by her is something of a Running Gag near the beginning. It's much less funny after she becomes a lost soul, and we find out that despite her snarky demeanor she took their rejection badly, and always thought there was something wrong about her because of that.
  • After the credits, there's a stinger where Terry shouts at the viewer "Oi! Movie's over! Go home!" While this would've been a funny moment in the theaters, Soul became one of the many 2020 movies impacted by the COVID-19 Pandemic, forcing it to skip its theatrical release and debut on streaming instead, meaning that most of the viewers who finally got to see it already were watching the movie at home.
  • Joe discovering he can’t taste or smell anything in the soul world becomes less funny in light of the COVID-19 pandemic, as the loss of taste and smell is one of the more prominent symptoms of the disease.

The last is a bit of a stretch, don't know about the first two. What should I do?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Apr 15th 2021 at 11:59:33 AM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

The first one seems okay. The last one is a stretch because it has nothing to do with disease. On the fence about the second one, but I'm leaning towards cut because it feels like a Covid shoehorn.

Sandbox help wanted.

We've brought those up before, I think. The second one is more a result of Animation Lead Time. It's not hindsight but it is unfortunate due to unforeseen circumstances.

Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 15th 2021 at 12:08:03 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

So, should I cut the last one?

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

This is on Flubber:

• Hilarious in Hindsight: Weebo's tendency to show little video clips to display her reactions and moods is a lot like people in the 2010's and 2020's doing the same with reaction GIFs on sites like Imgur, Twitter, and Facebook.

Edited by fragglelover on Apr 16th 2021 at 11:25:25 AM

Honestly, I'd keep that one.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Bringing up the following example from DV8:

• Harsher in Hindsight: A major theme of Warren Ellis' run on the series was the psychological damage caused by sexual and emotional abuse, with at least half the team having Rape as Backstory. Years later, it would come out that Ellis himself had used his fame and prestige to manipulate young women into sexual relationships.

And this example from Gen¹³:

• Hilarious in Hindsight: The climax of "Magical Drama Queen Roxy" features Freefall's dream world being deconstructed and falling apart around her. In the middle of all this, she crashes into swimming pool where she encounters Leonardo DiCaprio who is fully aware of what's going on around him. The comic was written in 1998.

Eh. I guess the first one is fine. Maybe dodgy in terms of ROCEJ, but I doubt it.

That second one is a fan myopic ZCE. I have no idea what it's getting at, it just mentions stuff that happens in the comic, and then mentions it being written in 1998 like we're supposed to know what that means.

EDIT: There's a pothole to Inception, but I still don't know what the connection is supposed to be because I haven't seen the movie. I doubt the connection would be strong enough for this to fit anyway.

Edited by RainbowPumpqueen on Apr 16th 2021 at 9:16:48 PM

Sandbox help wanted.

The Inception pothole makes perfect sense. In that Film, DiCaprio plays a thief who steals secrets from inside peoples minds by messing around with their subconscious in an induced dream. If the dreamer is woken up, or realizes that they are dreaming, the dream world will collapse around them in a cataclysm, and the theft crew wake up when the destruction kills them. (Not spoilered because that gets shown in the first ten minutes.)

Though that means that it might be more of an Actor Allusion to be placed on the Inception page.

Edited by underCoverSailsman on Apr 16th 2021 at 6:58:49 AM

Even if it's a valid example, you still have to explain why it's HIH instead of just linking to another wiki page.

Yeah no zero context examples.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

No argument there. Looking closer, it can't be an Actor Allusion unless the makers of Inception claim that it was a deliberate reference.

Does Hi H apply when the later event is a different role by the same actor? If so, I'll be glad to re-write that one.

~Robert TYL, I saw you deleted several examples on YMMV.Maleficent. Cool, but what about the rest?

• Harsher in Hindsight:
  • Prior to this film, Elle Fanning had starred in the film Ginger and Rosa, wherein her character Ginger grew increasingly fearful of dying due to Mutually Assured Destruction. At one point her character breaks down, saying, "I don't want to die! I want to grow up and do things!" Said words could also accurately describe Aurora's sadness in the third act of the film, only in relation to her death sleep.

I think this one has substance about what's harsher but, as this very entry says, Ginger and Rosa came out earlier than Maleficent. As we don't seem to have a Ginger and Rosa page, maybe this can be moved to Harsher in Hindsight.Film? Or is this not an example after all?

• One of the interviews on the film's Blu-Ray has Jolie mention an argument her kids had over whether or not Maleficent was evil. If anything, it can be seen as a microcosm of the fandom's Broken Base.

Jolie's argument with her kids doesn't relate to the movie itself but to its reception, so I suspect this doesn't count but I don't have a very good grasp of hindsight stuff to decide this by myself. :)

• Prince Philip is often cited as the first Disney Prince to be proactive and have some significant Character Development. Here, however, he's derailed to make Maleficent's love seen more powerful than his own (albeit justified in-narrative as Philip himself admits he doesn't know Aurora well enough yet where Maleficent has been indirectly raising her for years).

This just seems like complaining about adaptational changes.

• Walt Disney's original treatment of the fairies was for them to be Single Minded Triplets. He was persuaded to make them more unique and distinguished — and the original film has been praised for its diverse female characters. Come this movie and the three fairies are all interchangeable and incompetent.

Though I even agree with this particular complaint, I'm not sure this is an example and not just complaining about adaptational changes.

• Hilarious in Hindsight:
  • In Sleeping Beauty, Flora and Merryweather argued over whether Aurora's dress should be pink or blue. Most official media for that film portrays Aurora wearing pink. Then comes this film, and Aurora's main dress (the one she wears during the final battle) is blue.

I don't know what to make of this. I know, however, that in the sequel, the fairies have this squabble over the color of Aurora's wedding dress.

• In Sleeping Beauty, Fauna suggests that they attempt to reason with Maleficent, suggesting she can't be all bad. She's of course, hilariously wrong on this point for that depiction, but then comes this film, in which Maleficent is most certainly not pure evil.

I think this can be moved to YMMV.Sleeping Beauty.

• In 2013, a Disney fan made a Chicago parody called Spell Block Tango. The video included Maleficent, who was in love with Stefan until they broke up due to "artistic differences". A similar scenario ends up happening in the film.

This would probably belong on the page of that parody if only there was such a page.

• During a press interview for the film, Elle made a joke about how Disney should adapt Dumbo into a live-action film. Disney is indeed doing that.

I don't think the joke that isn't even in the movie counts.

Edit:

Edited by Tenebrika on Apr 17th 2021 at 8:12:36 PM

Those... I'm not entirely sure about them.

While I did delete a bunch of misused Hindsight examples, I figured it'd be better for those that remained to be analyzed by others? Call it the gray zone, maybe

I agree with removing a few of these to be relocated on their relevant pages though. And that the Dumbo reference should've just been cut since its from behind the scenes

Edited by RobertTYL on Apr 17th 2021 at 8:33:42 PM

Thank you. :) I'll cut the Dumbo reference and wait for more opinions, then.

From what I gathered about Ginger and Rosa, Fanning's heroine is afraid of dying if a nuclear war starts; this hardly relates to Aurora's falling into enchanted sleep, and wanting to live and do things is a common human thing. :) So, now I'm leaning towards cutting that one, too.

Edited by Tenebrika on Apr 17th 2021 at 8:26:18 PM

Here's my assessment:

• Ginger and Rose: Cut, it's a very loose actor connection.
• Jolie's kids: Seems more Hilarious in Hindsight if this is really an argument the fandom has.
• Prince Philip: Complaining, not hindsight for this film.
• The fairies: Complaining, not hindsight for this film.
• Pink or blue: Keep.
• Fauna: Move to the Sleeping Beauty page.
• Spell Block Tango: Move to HilariousInHindsight.Web Original.
• Dumbo: Move to the "real life" folder on the main page.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I found this on the YMMV page for Once Bitten:

• Hilarious in Hindsight:
  • Jim Carrey's vampire garb late in the film looks exactly like Edward Cullen. Including the hair. Made even more hilarious by the bookstore owner stating "People are basing their opinions on vampires on all those silly vampire movies today!"
  • One of the first things The Countess does is charm the main protagonist away from his Love Interest. As did the real Zatanna tried to do to Clark Kent in Smallville.

The second example is Fan Myopia, so that can be cut.

Maybe the first one too. Because, ain't vampire movies a thing?

Also, he doesn't look that much like Edward Cullen.

Edited by callmeamuffin on Apr 17th 2021 at 10:53:21 PM

Come play Character Uplift Game!

First one seems like a good enough connection.

The second one feels like a shoehorn, I'm 99% sure witches charming people away from their love interests was a thing before Once Bitten.

EDIT: NVM, re-reading the example, it can probably be deleted too. Twilight started off as a book series. People basing vampires off of what they saw in movies isn't new either, Dracula existed way before Twilight.

Edited by RainbowPumpqueen on Apr 17th 2021 at 10:26:51 PM

Sandbox help wanted.

Bringing up the following examples from John Carter:

• Harsher in Hindsight: Another Sci-Fi film produced by Disney, Tomorrowland, also bombed at the box office, leading to the studios giving up on producing Sci-Fi films outside of Lucasfilm and Marvel Comics, and cancelling the highly anticipated sequel to TRON: Legacy. A lot of John Carter fans have taken pity on the Tron fans for this reason. Then Solo failed as well, dooming Lucasfilm to also be Screwed by the Network in favor of the highly-controversial Disney Live-Action Remakes. Pray for Marvel, as their massive successes don't necessarily mean it'll be an eternal cash cow.
• Hilarious in Hindsight:
  • As noted on the trivia page, Director Andrew Stanton insisted on using "Kashmir" by Led Zeppelin in the trailers, but Disney refused, believing that a 30 year old rock song wouldn't appeal to the younger male audience the film was intended for. 5 years later, Thor: Ragnarok would heavily feature "The Immigrant Song", an older song by the same band, and not only was a critical success, but it also wound up making over 3 times what John Carter made, and 3 years before Ragnarok, there was Guardians of the Galaxy, which was filled with various other songs that were either as old as or a few years shy of "Kashmir", and it also made roughly around 3 times what John Carter made.
  • The Tharks are designed here with faces that bear a passing resemblance to the Bewilderbeast of How to Train Your Dragon 2, especially Tal Hajus who is missing his left tusk just like Drago's Bewilderbeast after the climax.