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Deadlock Clock: Sep 23rd 2020 at 11:59:00 PM
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#1: Feb 8th 2020 at 7:46:49 AM

This seems like a negative take on a genuine plot device with complainy, shoehorned examples (this is about villains who are invincible, and yet many of the examples are simply really difficult to take down). There are plenty of stories out there where an antagonist cannot be directly fought, but must be escaped, avoided, or negotiated with. Horror stories, Little Hero, Big War stories, and crime stories all spring to mind. I feel like the trope should be refocused towards that to make it a little more useful.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Berrenta Bejeweled (she/her) (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Bejeweled (she/her)
#2: Feb 18th 2020 at 9:55:36 AM

Opened for discussion. The redirect that points to this page is also complainy.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3: Feb 18th 2020 at 9:57:14 AM

That redirect may be sending the message that this trope is just Villan Sue under a different name. So I'd remove it.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#4: Feb 18th 2020 at 10:16:29 AM

Since people still tend to use these names, Boring Invincible Hero and Boring Invincible Villain (the redirects, not the tropes) should be cut.

Edited by Brainulator9 on Feb 18th 2020 at 1:16:51 PM

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GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#5: Feb 18th 2020 at 11:54:08 AM

[up]I agree. The mods previously cut the You Fail X Forever redirects for the Artistic License tropes, so I could see the Boring Invincible Hero/Villain names being a similar case.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 18th 2020 at 1:54:27 PM

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#6: Feb 18th 2020 at 5:19:51 PM

Yeah, cut the redirects.

As for the trope itself, a retool definitely sounds like a good idea. There absolutely is a time and a place when an Invincible Villain is a valid plot device.

On the other hand, another potential solution is to make it YMMV, or even Darth. That's not the best idea in the world, but something worth at least discussing to get it out of the way.

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Florien The They who said it from statistically, slightly right behind you. Since: Aug, 2019
The They who said it
#7: Feb 18th 2020 at 5:24:10 PM

The redirects are potentially diluting the meaning of the trope, so they should go. I don't think this is really YMMV, even if it gets misused as such though. I'd support a retool if that is the route decided on.

ADrago Since: Dec, 2015
#8: Feb 18th 2020 at 7:07:55 PM

I support cutting the redirects, as they are likely contributing to the complaining.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#9: Feb 19th 2020 at 4:27:47 AM

As Long as There Is Evil seems like an obvious Sister Trope to this one.

What's precedent ever done for us?
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#10: Feb 19th 2020 at 12:14:01 PM

Cutting the redirects sounds like the better option.

Going by the related page, Invincible Villain has brought 14,741 people to the wiki from inbound links, while Boring Invincible Villain has brought only 1,581. That's still a lot, but it's only a small percent from the current trope name.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Feb 19th 2020 at 3:16:40 PM

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#11: Feb 19th 2020 at 5:15:23 PM

Invincible Villain is considered bed writing because it leads to:

While it oft leads to these YMMV, the trope is based on what's objectively in the work, at least as written.

I say cut the following:

  • Any that are ultimately defeated by anything not a Deus ex Machina.
  • Any who's story is ongoing (they tend to get defeated in the end).
  • Any caused by Foregone Conclusion (as they are oft defeated later).
  • Any that can only be temporally defeated, but in such a way that those brief moments are treated as happy/bittersweet endings.

Some examples should be moved to the following:

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Feb 19th 2020 at 5:19:17 AM

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#12: Feb 19th 2020 at 11:02:20 PM

[up][up]You Fail Law Forever was cut with more inbounds than Boring Invincible Villain, and You Fail Biology Forever was cut with even more than that, so it's probably not a big deal, since cutting the Boring Invincible redirects would also be due to complaining.

I could be wrong about this; the Boring Invincible redirects' fate is ultimately up to the mods, since they were the ones who decided that the You Fail X Forever redirects should be cut.

Edit: Boring Invincible Villain only has 18 wicks, so dewicking it wouldn't take long... but Boring Invincible Hero has over 400 wicks, though the inbound count is lower than that of You Fail Biology Forever.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 20th 2020 at 2:49:04 PM

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Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#13: Feb 20th 2020 at 1:53:48 AM

[up][up] These are all good points [tup].

And yeah, if the redirects invite complaining, they should be cut after dewicking.

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miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14: Feb 20th 2020 at 6:08:13 AM

[up][up][up]I favour these points.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#15: Feb 20th 2020 at 11:32:27 AM

Aye, good points, Ferot.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#16: Feb 20th 2020 at 11:54:41 AM

For what it's worth, I decided to dewick Boring Invincible Villain in line with keeping trope names up to date. The two remaining wicks are Newsletter.News2010-07-23 and DethroningMoment.Literature; the former is an archive and the latter I hesitate to edit in case it comes off as editing other tropers' personal entries.

Boring Invincible Hero will be a bigger fish to tackle.

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Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#17: Feb 20th 2020 at 11:58:43 AM

I'd say that Invincible Villain is not 'considered to be bad writing', but is simply a trope that removes one easy way to give your story a satisfying ending. There are plenty of perfectly decent works out there where outright defeating an antagonist is not an option, and you can only avoid, escape from, or negotiate with them.

What's precedent ever done for us?
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#18: Feb 20th 2020 at 1:40:26 PM

[up] Agreed. We should, at the very least, remove the value judgment.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#19: Feb 20th 2020 at 8:37:48 PM

[tup]Removing from bad writing. Cosmic Horror show a whole genre can be successful use of this. It could get a rework to reflect this.

UPDATE: I realized Scrappy Index would be a better place for it as opposed to Bad Writing Index. Should it be moved there?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Feb 22nd 2020 at 6:30:16 AM

Berrenta Bejeweled (she/her) (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Bejeweled (she/her)
#20: Feb 23rd 2020 at 12:17:26 PM

It was proposed that we take this to the Trope Description Improvement Drive, so let's bring it there.

Leaving the thread open for a bit for now, unless if someone wants this closed right away.

Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#21: Feb 23rd 2020 at 12:35:16 PM

Personally, I'm happy to kill the Boring Invinicble Hero/Villain redirects and move discussion to the description improvement thread.

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Berrenta Bejeweled (she/her) (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Bejeweled (she/her)
#22: Feb 23rd 2020 at 12:59:54 PM

I'll go cutlist the two redirects and cite this thread. Another moderator could be the judge, probably.

EDIT: The Hero one has a bunch of wicks. Declining that; it needs cleaning first. 412 to be exact

Villain only had a Dethroning page (handled) and a Newsletter page which I will treat as an archive.

EDIT 2: Holding off on closing, so that redirect can be cleaned. Instead, thread will be starred.

Edited by Berrenta on Feb 23rd 2020 at 3:08:54 AM

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#23: Feb 23rd 2020 at 3:11:28 PM

Just to make sure, we're changing the wicks to Invincible Hero, not deleting them entirely, right?

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#24: Feb 23rd 2020 at 3:12:54 PM

[up] I imagine we'd delete any that are outright used to bash the character/work, but otherwise, yeah.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#25: Feb 23rd 2020 at 4:26:21 PM

Took care of Main/ wicks A through D. There's one I left behind, but I'm bringing what it's apart of to Ask The Tropers, so it'll be done later.

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Total posts: 64
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