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Rian Johnson's Knives Out

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Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#276: Dec 27th 2022 at 9:27:22 AM

It wasn't just that the villain was a moron. It's that the villain was an ultrawealthy tech guy who everyone assumed had to be a genius because no one wanted to admit that they were supporting and giving money to a blithering idiot. Almost all of the tech guys are like this, including some of the "good" ones.

It was very timely that it came out when it did, but even if it came out a year earlier, it'd still be relevant because none of this stuff about Musk and the other tech billionaires is new. It's just unusual that Musk decided to completely self destruct.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#277: Dec 27th 2022 at 11:35:30 AM

Watched the film and really liked it.

Part of me thinks the moment where Blanc gives Miles shit for stealing his gun plan was a bit uncalled for. XD Miles took Blanc's metaphor and turned it into a plan that almost worked.

Kaze ni Nare!
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#278: Dec 27th 2022 at 12:26:47 PM

Which is apparently exactly how he got successful in the first place, of course. Well, not the murdering bit presumably but the whole taking other people's ideas and using them bit.

Which is probably why Blanc is so annoyed about it in the first place - the killer nearly gets away with it by using Blanc's own suggestion.

Edited by jakobitis on Dec 27th 2022 at 8:28:40 PM

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Bubblepig Rei from Tokyo (Apprentice) Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
#279: Dec 27th 2022 at 11:55:14 PM

I like how some characters are based on real life people the sequel is making fun of (Miles= Elon Musk, Duke= Joe Rogan and Birde= Paris Hilton/Lana Del Ray).

"Now it's starting to feel like a game!"
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#280: Dec 28th 2022 at 1:59:10 AM

I feel like Lionel didn't get enough flak for being the one who faxed Andi's email to Bron, which led to Bron deciding to murder her.

Bexlerfu Khatun of the Azim Steppe from Mol Iloh Since: Nov, 2020
Khatun of the Azim Steppe
#281: Dec 28th 2022 at 2:38:25 AM

To be fair, like everybody else he just expected for Bron not to be dumb enough to murder somebody he went on trial against. Also he was the one directly working under him, it makes sense for him to warn his boss.

Still a sleazy, cowardly hypocrite tho.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#282: Dec 28th 2022 at 2:58:50 AM

My interpretation is that Blanc was really angry at himself for unintentionally putting Helen in potential danger by giving the villain an idea of how to kill her.

Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#283: Dec 28th 2022 at 2:14:14 PM

It's just a throwaway gag with two interpretations that both work; either Miles is so rich and influential that he can even get Banksy to work for him, or he just bought the statues (Banksy's works regularly fetch big sums at auction) and modelled the dock around them. Or he's lying. Or someone tricked him into buying fakes.

The reasons it's improbable that those are real Banksy statues are (a) Banksy is not, primarily, a glass sculptor, (b) the statues are a matching pair that would have to have been specifically commissioned (by someone, not necessarily Miles), and (c) they're based on The Flower Thrower which is one of his most famous and most widely imitated stencil murals.

That said, it's quite thematically appropriate, considering Banksy has been critical of how people value his graffiti more for what it is than what it means (which is exactly what Miles has done, taken political commentary out of its context and treated it as a status symbol) and is no stranger to destroying valuable artwork in someone else's possession to try to make a point.

God damn, that climax. The choice of the Mona Lisa is apt as well, considering that much like the napkin, its status as the most famous painting in the world is almost pure hype - no one waxed poetic about her "enigmatic smile" until after its high-profile theft.

(Spotting the bizarre art choices all over the mansion was a lot of fun. My favourite was the untextured low-poly humanoid figure, slumped against a pillar like it was banging its head against it and gave up in the middle.)

tricking Ransom into a confession only for him to flop at attempting murder in front of law enforcement was more small-scale, but more cathartic than resorting to blowing up the Glass Onion

Tricking Ransom into a confession worked because it was small-scale. Not only is Miles in a position where it's plausible that even protecting the napkin for the rest of the night might not have been enough to expose him, Helen becoming a more active catalyst of his own hubris is more satisfying because she becomes the disruptor he claims to be and turns his professed ideology against him.

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#284: Dec 28th 2022 at 9:34:36 PM

I think a lot of people complain about the Mona Lisa being essentially another thing Bron ends up taking away.

Basically, it'd have been better just to shoot him.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
NotGrantMorrison Since: Jul, 2014
#285: Dec 28th 2022 at 10:15:57 PM

So was the plan at the end That the Mono Lisa Burning would bankrupt Miles so he would have no leverage over the other people? Even with that into account Wouldn't coming clean about the Napkin incriminate them all for perjury?

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#286: Dec 28th 2022 at 10:34:32 PM

The plan was that with the Mona Lisa destroyed thanks to Miles' experimental fuel, his reputation is about to dive in the gutter. As such, his Disruptors who were all relying on him to sustain their careers are about to lose it all, so they decide they might as well out him as a liar and a murderer to hammer the nails in his coffin themselves. Perjury is about to be the least of their problems.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#287: Dec 28th 2022 at 10:37:27 PM

Hell of a plan but its a damn shame a work of art had to be destroyed like that.

Also just watched it, good movie.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
NotGrantMorrison Since: Jul, 2014
#288: Dec 28th 2022 at 10:52:08 PM

Isn't he still rich though? Lionel had him as an employer, Birdie as an investor and the Governor as a campaign contributor. And there isn't much evidence that Klear caused the fire especially when getting people to lie to the authorities is like Miles whole thing and Klear isn't wildly known. Wrecking the Mona Lisa js a big ass scandal and he would probably cost Miles a lot of money but as Elon shows rich billionaires can waste tons of money on foolish things and still be rich and powerful. I could see the Governor turning on him because he is known as her chief donor but she got caught at a pandemic party with a dead MRA streamer and a torched Mona Lisa, so she was already torched in the public eye meaning turning on Miles did nothing but cost her a golden goose. I know the idea was that Klear burning the Mona Lisa would destroy Miles reputation and power but as long as he is still Rich his "golden teats" he used to control the shit heads are still intact.

Edited by NotGrantMorrison on Dec 28th 2022 at 10:53:31 AM

Bexlerfu Khatun of the Azim Steppe from Mol Iloh Since: Nov, 2020
Khatun of the Azim Steppe
#289: Dec 28th 2022 at 11:21:46 PM

Since he is quite obviously an Etron Musk ref, then it works because his real worth is grossly overinflated, meaning that any scandal big enough to make his assets' value plummet - or at least go down to their real worth - would burst the bubble and make investors ditch him en masse. And Musk's assets are his companies' market capitalization, which in some cases (Tesla) are grossly overinflated. You already at the moment have people selling their shares because Twitter is proving that Musk is an unhinged idiot, if tomorrow Tesla tech caused the death of a celebrity for example, the stock price would plummet dramatically.

So the publicity of Bron causing the destruction of the most famous piece of art in the world because of how unsafe the new tech his fortune is based on actually is would be catastrophic for him.

Edited by Bexlerfu on Dec 28th 2022 at 8:23:44 PM

Prowler I'm here for our date, Rose! Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
I'm here for our date, Rose!
#290: Dec 29th 2022 at 12:34:01 AM

[up] Johnson says Miles was never intended as a pastiche of Musk. Disingenuous techbro idiots just happen to have a lot in common with each other; reckless leaps before looking, being much dumber than their public images initially suggest, theft of credit for ideas from the actual geniuses they work over, etc., etc.,...

Edited by Prowler on Dec 29th 2022 at 2:56:47 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#291: Dec 29th 2022 at 2:27:14 AM

Basically, it'd have been better just to shoot him.

Why? This guy destroyed Helen's sister in court and has convinced the rest of the world that he is an unparalleled genius. The only thing Helen accomplishes by shooting him is going to prison and no one knowing what he did to her sister.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#292: Dec 29th 2022 at 2:31:48 AM

Well, he presumably wouldn’t be in a position to fuck anyone else over, being dead.

Oh God! Natural light!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#293: Dec 29th 2022 at 2:42:58 AM

Depends on if Alpha would have the guts to tell everyone mourning Miles that his last gift to the world was a bomb and to absolutely not buy it.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 29th 2022 at 2:44:35 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#294: Dec 29th 2022 at 2:48:01 AM

The funny thing is he prolly would have found legal success had he just sold those things to the military as an actual weapon

Though I guess arms-dealing isn't as revolutionary as clean energy heh

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#295: Dec 29th 2022 at 3:40:41 AM

I believe the ending is specifically about Klear.

     The Ending - Spoilers 

Bron has staked his entire reputation on the hydrogen clean energy that he's attempting to market to the world. This is notably Stupid Evil as the stuff apparently has flammable emissions that are ejected into the area outside of houses, power plants, and so on.

Hence, why smoking is banned on the island since it'll blow the place up. Eveyone is willing to go along with it because they're sure they can cover it up for a long while or even if they DO know it'll be a disaster, they're too scared to be the one to push the button.

Helen takes the matter out of her hands as destroying the Mona Lisa means that everyone in the world will be investigating what happened. There's no way that they won't determine Klear is a bum product that will utterly fail to work on a basic science level. It's like Elizabeth Holmes' machine, the Edison, it's a great idea if it works but it doesn't and never could.

The others know that not only is Bron a toxic brand but he's going to be ruined publicly and a way that will greatly overshadow them. They can now actually protect themselves by testifying he tried to kill them, killed a friend of theirs, and all the other evil misdeeds.

Also, they hate him anyway. He was just convenient.

[up]

To be fair, the stuff doesn't blow up particularly well or controllably. It's basically hydrogen coal.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 29th 2022 at 3:41:44 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#296: Dec 29th 2022 at 8:43:39 AM

Saw the movie over the weekend and loved it.

I realize that a lot of the identification between Bron and Musk has to do with Musk's deservedly cratering reputation, it does seem an obvious (if not fully intentional) association, because broadly speaking, Bron is a techbro who went from a social media company to an energy company, and Musk is a techbro who went from an energy company to a social media company. Also, it's not hard to make the connection between (spoiler I guess) "electric cars that are a danger to drivers and pedestrians" and "a clean energy source that's actually a hydrogen bomb".

One thing that struck me about a possibly Accidental Aesop (maybe Space Whale Aesop) - So there's been a trend in recent months of people "vandalizing" famous works of art to call attention to climate issues. I don't think Johnson necessarily had that in mind, since it's more recent, and in real life, I despise those activists. But in the movie itself, Johnson created a scenario where destroying the Mona Lisa is a reasonable choice to bring down a killer and prevent the deaths of countless people.

Also, a couple of other random thoughts:

  • I wonder if another reason why Blanc hates Clue is because he is named like a Clue character.
  • Being an Agatha Christie fan, it struck me that Duke's Crazy Survivalist tendencies, including bringing a gun with him was a nod to Lombard in Christie's And Then There Were None (as well as the whole island thing). Also, the way in which Whisky almost shoots Helen with a harpoon is kind of like a comedic version of how Vera kills Lombard because she thinks he's the killer.
  • Also, I suspect that Birdie and Peg's relationship is semi-inspired by Marie Van Schuyler and Miss Bowers in Death on the Nile.
  • I wasn't previously aware of the Beatles song "Glass Onion", but it is an appropriate title because it fits well thematically with the movie, since the song is basically one big Take That! towards far out analyses of Beatles lyrics. Or in other words, it's a song about things being a lot less complex than they seem.

Edit - RE The Beatles' song, I just found out that we have a page The Walrus Was Paul that discusses the "Glass Onion" song.

Edited by Hodor2 on Dec 29th 2022 at 8:58:03 AM

NotGrantMorrison Since: Jul, 2014
#297: Dec 29th 2022 at 9:45:36 AM

Actually yeah thinking about it The Mona Lisa Burning is too high profile for Bron to avoid an investigation that would find out Klear did it. And as other anons pointed out a lot of the super rich tech bros of this day and age have most of their wealth on stock, there primary value literally is what other people think of them. That message is so on theme for the movie I actually think it would have made it better to point out Bron doesn't actually have much "real" money and that his wealth is built on the back of people believing in his myth.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#298: Dec 29th 2022 at 9:55:39 AM

[up][up] Wait people vandalizing famous works of art to call attention to climate issues, thats an actual thing?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#299: Dec 29th 2022 at 10:24:45 AM

Yes. Some details in This Time Article. I used air quotes because in the real acts (i.e throwing soup at a Van Gough painting), the paintings had some protective shielding. But my impression is that the "Discourse" argues that they would also be justified if there wasn't this protection.

[down] Wow. I had no idea there were so many incidents, including with the Mona Lisa itself.

Edited by Hodor2 on Dec 29th 2022 at 10:28:17 AM

Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
#300: Dec 29th 2022 at 10:26:41 AM

Yup. The Mona Lisa was a high profile example, around June this year I believe.


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