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Ron the Death Eater Cleanup

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Pichu-kun ... Since: Jan, 2001
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#1: Dec 25th 2019 at 3:38:08 PM

Inspired by this Ask The Tropers page.

Ron the Death Eater has many general examples, especially on YMMV pages. The trope's page was previously cleaned up to remove general examples but YMMV pages still misuse it.

Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
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#2: Dec 25th 2019 at 3:46:43 PM

I think part of the problem may be that I see three separate tropes being put under Ron the Death Eater (Draco in Leather Pants has the same uses, but morality-inverted):

  • Fans treat or interpret a character as being more evil than they actually are.
  • Characters that are often demonized in fan-fiction; this may run afowl of Examples Are Not General.
  • Adaptational Villainy, but for fanworks. Not sure if this is worth splitting.

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Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#3: Dec 25th 2019 at 3:56:42 PM

Relevant RTDE (and Draco in Leather Pants) discussion in Trope Talk which was sent to the morgue. I think the last thing said there was something like "It's too much work to rewrite/fix".

Edited by Tabs on Dec 25th 2019 at 3:57:05 AM

Pichu-kun ... Since: Jan, 2001
...
#4: Dec 25th 2019 at 4:45:38 PM

[up][up] Ron the Death Eater gets used as fan-work centric Adaptational Jerkass or Adaptational Villainy with a bias. Fans demonize a certain character for selfish/petty reasons, like Die for Our Ship or just disliking the character.

Despite this, that's misuse. I've seen it posted anywhere and intent doesn't matter for Ron the Death Eater. So, in essence, all fan-works that use Adaptational Jerkass or Adaptational Villainy are also Ron the Death Eater.

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#5: Dec 25th 2019 at 5:16:31 PM

Are there examples of Ron the Death Eater that aren't Adaptational Jerkass or Adaptational Villainy?

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Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#6: Dec 25th 2019 at 6:36:19 PM

^Only the non-sourced general ones under the original material noting the unfair vilification which is apparently misuse.

Here's a problem I noticed with this from RonTheDeathEater.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic

  • There's a lot of Celestia-abuse encoded in stories written under The Conversion Bureau umbrella, and while it's unintentional in the case of the pro-TCB fics (Celestia is usually presented as a benevolent god-queen, but Fridge Horror says otherwise), it is usually very much intentional in anti-TCB fics, because it's fairly hard to justify a Celestia who acts like she does in canon invading another world with the intent to commit genocide by Assimilation Plot.

I think the pro-TBC can't be examples because they're not intentionally vilifying her as they're trying to present her as heroic despite the implications (which sounds like the opposite of this trope, fans overlooking flaws). It's the anti-TBC ones, who accuse the pro of vilifying them, doing the vilifying by running with the worst of the unintentional implications as opposed to ignoring/fixing them. I believe most of this wiki are in the anti camp as we like the deconstruction and acknowledgment of the unintentional implications, thus we contribute to the problem by endorsing such if done for a narratively satisfying purpose. This is where I lost faith we can salvage this given the contentiousness.

When put under the official works, it's complaining about other fans vilifying them (I've found anything legit can be moved to Never Live It Down). When under the fan works it's complaining about the Adaptational Villainy/Jerkass treatment of them if it's intentional (so it shouldn't be YMMV), and if it's not intentional it the same problem as official works or redundant with other complaint tropes.

I now fear RTDH is like Mary Sue, the distinction (crossing the line from legitimate to illegitimate vilification) is too subjective and complaint prone to work as actual examples. RTDH is supposed to be unfair vilification, but unless we can define unfair as opposed to fair (justified though adaptational changes or Ascended Fridge Horror), I can't think of any other way to salvage is save not allowing examples. I hope we can think of something else.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Dec 25th 2019 at 6:55:33 AM

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#7: Dec 25th 2019 at 7:09:41 PM

Better question - can there logistically exist an actual, non-general example of Ron the Death Eater that isn't Adaptational Villainy or Adaptational Jerkass? Like, can we even make up a hypothetical one?

Cause if not, we can turn this into a fanspeak-definition page.

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Dec 25th 2019 at 7:10:09 AM

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Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#8: Dec 26th 2019 at 12:07:12 AM

^The one I can find is this:

  • Frigid Winds and Burning Hearts has Celestia banishing Luna to the Moon in order to protect her rule over Equestria and then spending a millennium cementing her control over ponykind. What makes this a particularly egregious case is that the author claims to be a fan of Celestia and that he intended the story to be a Grey-and-Gray Morality tale.

The fact that it's unintentional argues against this trope, as RTDH is about overly blatant vilification.

I'd [tup] making an Exampleless Supertrope like Mary Sue as the point where the vilification crosses into this trope is too subjective and hard to define even as a YMMV. As used under the original works, it violates examples are not general (unless they cite specific works, the only other way I can see this salvaged), used under the fan works it's not YMMV as it's intentional and is just complaining about Additional Villainy/Jerkass.

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#9: Dec 26th 2019 at 11:04:09 AM

  1. I like finding objective criteria whenever possible, moving YMMV to Main tropes.
  2. I don't see a tropable difference between RTDE and Adaptational Villany.
  3. Changing from a trope page to a fanspeak Definition-Only Pages should probably be done in TRS. We could Hollar a mod to move this thread there. They might require a new thread instead.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
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#10: Dec 26th 2019 at 11:37:44 AM

[tup] Take this and Draco in Leather Pants to TRS.

I know this was supposed to be about cleanup, but I just wanted to give my thoughts.

Edited by Brainulator9 on Dec 27th 2019 at 10:23:32 AM

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#11: Dec 26th 2019 at 12:45:30 PM

I'm inclined to vote for Draco In Leather Pants and Ron The Death Eater to become definition only reactions. While it's not as debatable as Mary Sue, the fact the tropes are prone to general examples make it wonky to work with.

If anything, as long as there are sourced examples of Adaptational Heroism or Adaptational Villainy in the fanbase that make them think a character is different from the source material, I think it could count for a mention on YMMV, similar to Word of Dante on trivia.

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#12: Dec 26th 2019 at 2:50:33 PM

Admittedly, I could be misunderstanding this, I feel that there is a difference between Ron the Death Eater and Adaptational Villainy. With the former, the fic treats the character is evil because the author hates the character and/or feels like they are evil in canon, while the latter is admitting the character is changed and is exploring them in a different context.

In essence, an AU where Bloom joins The Trix would be Adaptational Villainy, while a fic that has Bloom abandon the Winx for the Trix without any reason why would be Ron the Death Eater.

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WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#13: Dec 26th 2019 at 2:54:19 PM

[up] Except...

There are many reasons for the writers to portray a character as more evil or jerkass than in the original. It doesn't have to be a result of disdain towards the character. Some writers find role-reversal stories to be interesting, need a character to be evil for some plotpoint to make sense, wish to present a drastic For Want of a Nail scenario or are doing stuff like that purely for comedy.

So no, Ron the Death Eater isn't always based in character-hatred.

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#14: Dec 26th 2019 at 2:56:05 PM

Even if it was, would that be an interesting thing to keep track of?

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Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#15: Dec 26th 2019 at 6:29:26 PM

Thought. Death Eater and Leather Pants aren't about portrayals in fanworks (that’s where it crosses to Adaptational), but characters who are magnets for vilification and whitewashing respectively, hence the ymmv.

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#16: Dec 26th 2019 at 6:30:32 PM

[up] ...Which leads to a lot of general "Bob is often vilified" examples...

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RallyBot2 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: I-It's not like I like you, or anything!
#17: Dec 26th 2019 at 6:35:21 PM

This again leads to the argument as to whether RTDE/DILP are tied to the source work or the fan work. If it's the former, the examples are not general as they refer to a single character from a single work.

Listing "Bob is RTDE'd in Fanworks A, B, and C" on the source work page is also something we obviously shouldn't do, that's Adaptational Villainy as has been discussed already.

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#18: Dec 26th 2019 at 8:58:10 PM

[up] I think making the trope sourced to the source work could be best, as it's about what the fandom does to a specific character in a work.

I'm not sure how to work with the trope with the no general examples part, or if it even can be worked with.

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Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#19: Dec 26th 2019 at 9:15:53 PM

[up]Have all source examples cite works where it happens to prove it's widespread enough to be notable.

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#20: Dec 26th 2019 at 9:28:39 PM

[up] That doesn't make them not General...

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Piterpicher Veteran Editor IV from Poland, for real (Series 2) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#21: Dec 27th 2019 at 8:53:04 AM

I don't normally post in threads like this, but whatever. I feel like the problem here is people thinking that not giving sources and just stating the character is vilified/herofied makes the example general is the problem here. Consider an example like this from DracoInLeatherPants.Video Games:

  • Final Fantasy VII's post-meltdown Sephiroth (in the image on the main page) was a sociopathic madman who killed Aerith, burned down Cloud's hometown, betrayed his trust in a glorious way, and led him on a wild goose chase all across the Planet simply to manipulate him into bringing him a magical Doomsday Device, which he then used to attempt to destroy the world. There isn't even the faintest hint of sympathy portrayed for him by any of the game's characters. However, this doesn't stop the fandom declaring him to be a Hive Mind puppet of Jenova, and relegating him to the level of innocence commonly reserved for The Woobie — even though this theory was never implied in the game, and was blatantly disproven by Word of God and the supplemental materials.note  This seems purely an effect of his good looks as similarly bad but creepy villains in the story get no such sympathy, though it might also be due to remembering the Pre-meltdown version and trying 'badly' to merge the two personas.
I think it works. It mentions a specific character, a reason why they're evil and should be treated as such, and why fans want to hide their evil treatment. Does this really need a fan citation? Not really. Few other YMMV pages require sourcing their claims (Unfortunate Implications does, but it would be a trashfire of offenses if it didn't). Other character-based YMMV doesn't need such a justification, like Memetic Molester. We don't mention specific instances of that character being turned into a molester, but we do mention what can make that character seem that way, like mannerisms/dialogue. Besides, I thought general examples are more like using a generic description to illustrate a principle, something like this:
  • Villains who don't understand the world tend to have their evil side ignored by fans who also feel like they don't understand the world.
As for Ron the Death Eater, I think it would be harder to write sourceless examples, but it may still be possible. Hypothetical example of Mario:
  • Mario from Super Mario Bros. is typically a friendly, helpful plumber. However, he is portrayed by fans as a psychopath.
That is a poor example since it would requite why he was turned into this. Maybe something like this would work:
  • Mario from Super Mario Bros. is typically a friendly, helpful plumber. However, some fans take his moments like grinding his shoe onto Luigi's foot, his abusive behavior towards Donkey Kong and stomping on enemies with glee as signs of him being a psychopath.
What's currently on the page is a bunch of examples using Mario and giving multiple mentions of fan works turning him into a villain, which I agree sounds more like Adaptational Villainy and objective troping than anything else.

I may be wrong here, but I feel like this whole "not using specific instances would make examples general" debacle is not a good thing, especially since There Is no Such Thing as Notability exists and these just don't seem like "general" examples. I also know that YMMV has specific criteria and not every single thing can be listed (which is why cleanups for The Scrappy and Ensemble Dark Horse exist), but in case of RTDI and DILP, maybe we're trying to make the rules for these YMMV items too restrictive and they should be made more relaxed.

Edited by Piterpicher on Dec 27th 2019 at 6:06:49 PM

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#22: Dec 27th 2019 at 12:42:13 PM

I think the problem here is that "the fandom does this a lot" is a textbook case of a general non-example, and these tropes literally are "the fandom does X a lot".

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Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
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#23: Dec 27th 2019 at 12:50:46 PM

[up] Correct. One example, one bullet point. Works do not share bullet points unless they're smaller parts of a larger work (episodes of a TV show, installments in a franchise, etc.). Issues with Example Indentation in Trope Lists and Zero-Context Examples are largely why Examples Are Not General.

I really need to write up that page some time...

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WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#24: Dec 27th 2019 at 12:55:21 PM

Exactly.

The other pages get away with it because the examples are tied to the source, not the fanworks... But really, thinking about it, they could be general too...

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WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#25: Dec 27th 2019 at 12:56:33 PM

Double

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 27th 2019 at 3:59:18 PM

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