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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#3501: Apr 27th 2023 at 6:55:38 PM

I get having a problem with it not involving Mando directly, but I can't get behind the claim that it's not relevant to the serialized story, which is the claim Pitch Meeting makes.

If anything, when it dropped I was expecting the opposite reaction: the episode is basically nothing but set up for the serialized story, and possibly the most story focused episode before Gideon himself shows up. It's literally 45 minutes of blatant setup for the Gideon plotline, and the things that happen in it are very relevant to the season's story. This isn't book of Boba Fett, where it's an episode about Mando that has nothing to do with what Boba's going through.

Debateably it's too plot heavy, so I totally would've expected a Iron Man 2-esque reaction against the show putting the plot ahead of the characters. Instead, people went "what does this have to do with the plot at all?" which just left me tilting my head and going "whuh?"

I dunno, it always just struck me more as a knee-jerk backlash to the main character not being in the episode much, assuming it was just like Book of Boba when it wasn't, rather than a genuine read of the episode's itself.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 27th 2023 at 7:03:24 AM

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3502: Apr 27th 2023 at 7:03:18 PM

[up]I mean, it has to do with the larger plot of the Filoni-Verse, but I don't see how it advances the plot of the Mandalorian. We learn about his spy in the New Republic who...warns him their coming to Mandalore, which he could have easily learned by just keeping an eye on them. We learn that he's interested in cloning, which I was sort of under the impression we already knew? But maybe I'm misremembering.

We learn about New Republic incompetence, corruption and brainwashing, which don't really matter to the Mandalorians. Maybe we learn Gideon escaped? I thought it was mentioned earlier though, and that can hardly be a surprise or news to anyone.

ETA: Cross-edits and responses:[down] I tend to agree with whoever it was who mentioned it earlier, this felt like rejiggering to get the needed story beats that would have been in the Rangers of the New Republic series into one of the existing shows, rather than anything which effected the Mandalorian. Gideon escaped, he's still working on his evil plan and he knows, generally, what the Mandalorians are up to, is basically what it accomplishes. I'd say it falls prey to MCU disease of setting something up, rather than doing something for the existing story.

Edited by ECD on Apr 27th 2023 at 7:06:04 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#3503: Apr 27th 2023 at 7:03:55 PM

It has nothing to do with the greater Filoni verse, actually. The plotlines it sets up are introduced in the beginning of the season, are followed up during the season, and definitively conclude with the season finale.

Again, it's blatant setup for the Gideon storyline. The things that happen in it become relevant to the season almost immediately, and the plot it sets up constitutes the finale of the season.

We learn about his spy in the New Republic who...warns him their coming to Mandalore, which he could have easily learned by just keeping an eye on them. We learn that he's interested in cloning, which I was sort of under the impression we already knew? But maybe I'm misremembering.

We learn:

  • That Gideon has escaped, which we didn't know before, which was important to do since he was definitively defeated in his last appearance, and which forms the backbone of the latter half of the season.
  • That he is actively plotting within the Republic, which informs the plot of several subsequent episodes of the season.
  • That he has an agent actively manipulating things within the Republic, a characters who recurs twice over the course of the rest of the season, continuing to act within that role, including the season finale.
  • That he is collecting materials for some kind of project, which Mando destroys in the finale.

At worst, what happened there is that the writers needed to re-set up Gideon, but couldn't think of a way to do that within the "unite Mandalore" episode, so they dedicated an entire episode to it specifically and left Mandalore out of it. Which is a suspect decision, but there's definitely no justifiably arguing that the episode wasn't relevant to story of The Mandalorian.

this felt like rejiggering to get the needed story beats that would have been in the Rangers of the New Republic series into one of the existing shows, rather than anything which effected the Mandalorian

Unlikely, given that it's set up for the Gideon plot, which Mando faces and defeats in the finale. Again, the plot was very clearly followed up on right away. It wasn't left hanging or anything.

The spy character will probably continue into the Rangers storyline, but that's not the same thing.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 27th 2023 at 7:16:39 AM

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3504: Apr 27th 2023 at 7:16:42 PM

[up]So addressing these in turn:

"That Gideon has escaped, which we didn't know before, which was important to do since he was definitively defeated in his last appearance, and which forms the backbone of the latter half of the season."

I'd need to rewatch, as I thought we were told that earlier. But even if not, that shouldn't be a secret. So, it can be handled with a literal news bulletin, or a message from Cara to Mando, or any number of ways that take literally one line, not one episode.

"That he is actively plotting within the Republic, which forms the backbone of the story of the latter half of the season."

Except it doesn't actually. His agent accomplishes two things: frying Dr. Pershing, who was out of the story and reporting that the Mandalorians have united. The first is irrelevant to this story. The second is something he could have learned as the Mandalorians were fighting his agents and one of them got away (I believe?).

"That he has an agent actively manipulating things within the Republic, a characters who recurs twice over the course of the rest of the season, continuing to act within that role."

Okay. So? What does that do for this story?

"That he is collecting materials for some kind of project, which Mando destroys in the finale."

Which we already knew and then are told again in the Shadow Council scene.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#3505: Apr 27th 2023 at 7:17:53 PM

I'd need to rewatch, as I thought we were told that earlier. But even if not, that shouldn't be a secret. So, it can be handled with a literal news bulletin, or a message from Cara to Mando, or any number of ways that take literally one line, not one episode.

The second is something he could have learned as the Mandalorians were fighting his agents and one of them got away (I believe?)

"it couldn't been done differently" doesn't really matter if your claim is that it's not relevant. Those are two entirely different arguments.

It is the way those plot points were introduced, plot points that were relevant to the overall story, and thus it's a relevant part of the story.

"That he is collecting materials for some kind of project, which Mando destroys in the finale."

Which we already knew and then are told again in the Shadow Council scene.

Again, at the time Gideon was definitively defeated. So we didn't already know that he was active and hoarding materials currently. The audience was under the assumption that his machinations were already done.

And doesn't this logic make the Shadow Council scene mentioning it the one that's irelevant rather than any previous examples, seeing as we already knew it by that point?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 27th 2023 at 7:20:54 AM

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3506: Apr 27th 2023 at 7:20:47 PM

[up]Except, if you do in an episode what should take a line, then yes, I think the episode is unnecessary.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#3507: Apr 27th 2023 at 7:21:15 PM

Except, if you do in an episode what should take a line

Huh?


If I'm reading you right, anyway, the issue is that "the episode should've been different" is personal preference, whereas "the episode sets up things that recurred and were relevant to the rest of the season" is kind of indisputable on way or the other. If relevant plot points and characters are introduced in the episode in a way that continues to be utilized throughout the season's plot, then the episode is relevant to the season's plot basically by definition.

Whether the episode was interesting and whether it was relevant to the story are unrelated topics, and the former's YMMV anyway.

Like, I think the the gag in Pitch Meeting would've made more sense if the intern was babbling infodumps about the story and trying to do the Producers / Writer's job, but wasn't able to keep the Other Intern's interest. That would've at least been a criticism that fit The Mandalorian.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 27th 2023 at 7:26:34 AM

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3508: Apr 27th 2023 at 7:26:14 PM

[up]Let me rephrase. There is information, which is relevant to the plot, which is conveyed in the episode. However, in my view, that information is so minimal that including the side plot is simply wasteful given the short season length and what they were trying to do in it. ETA: And for the Pitch Meeting question, I mean, the sideplot had effect on the main thrust of the sketch, in that Producer Guy wanted coffee and he got coffee and we saw how! Usually that would have just been an off-screen thing, just like that episode could have been. The sketch worked for me.

Where I disagree with Ryan is that the problem this season has isn't stretching out plot points, but rather the reverse. I think it's trying to hit all the plot points of this show and the lost Rangers show, which results in a very disjointed story and spending most of an episode on Dr. Pershing and Kale whose effect on this narrative could have been replaced with a voicemail and a one line add, was not, in my view, a good use of the limited runtime.

Edited by ECD on Apr 27th 2023 at 7:28:52 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#3509: Apr 27th 2023 at 7:27:46 PM

I can see your point about it being better served in the main plot vs a side episode, though I can't agree that setup for the main threat of the season counts as minimal. And I dunno, I can't fully agree that having a side episode with side characters cover main story points is a bad idea in the first place. It's not something that's really a problem in other shows, but Star Wars fans in particular just rallied against it. It reminds me of the "plot armor" craziness back with Kenobi.

It just feels so off base in comparison to how on point criticisms in Pitch Meeting tend to be. It really just feels like a shot at Lower-Deck Episode as a concept moreso than fitting the season in itself.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 27th 2023 at 7:32:13 AM

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3510: Apr 27th 2023 at 7:30:27 PM

[up]Eh, I saw it less as an attack on such episodes and more as a callback to Book of Boba Fett. This one is certainly far less egregious, but the parallel is interesting and funny, to me.

ETA: I do think Filoni might enjoy just doing some sort of Star Wars Anthology thing, where he could be much more freeform and tell individual stories without needing an overarching narrative. And I'd probably enjoy the heck out of that show. But, if he's going to try to do serialized storytelling, I wish he'd focus in a bit more. Or go full episodic. Either is good, but this structure feels very ad hoc and unfocused and not in a good way.

Edited by ECD on Apr 27th 2023 at 7:33:29 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#3511: Apr 27th 2023 at 7:38:11 PM

I agree with that (I do think the season was disjointed, and I think it's because they were trying to do two plots at once and not giving each quite enough space), though I think Ahsoka might be meant to be the more tightly focused, serialized series.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 27th 2023 at 7:41:51 AM

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#3512: Apr 28th 2023 at 12:59:37 AM

Whole “episode is not about main character” critisism just sounds stupid. By that logic Day in the Limelight episodes shoudn’t exist.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Apr 28th 2023 at 12:59:59 PM

uncertanSearcher It's always Season of the Witch from Germany Since: Oct, 2017
It's always Season of the Witch
#3513: Apr 28th 2023 at 3:09:52 AM

Weird how episodes three and six were seemingly the episodes who got the most criticism this season, when those were by far the episodes I liked the most. In big parts because of how unique they felt compared to the rest.

Episodes one and four are the ones I personally consider pretty weak.

Edited by uncertanSearcher on Apr 28th 2023 at 12:10:49 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#3514: Apr 28th 2023 at 5:45:31 AM

The Pershing episode is pretty important for setting up the reveal of Gideon's Force-clones, and it's also the first time it's clearly stated out loud that Gideon's back rather than simply very strongly implied with little ambiguity that Gideon's back. Which wouldn't seem like a big deal, but at the time the episode was airing, a lot of people somehow got it in their head that Thrawn had Gideon killed and was behind all the things instead of him.

So there is value in taking a moment to look the audience squarely in the eyes and go, "It's Gideon. It's Gideon. The villain is Gideon. The villain has always been Gideon. I don't know why you thought it'd be anyone but Gideon. It's Gideon."

And the setup for the cloning is... theoretically hugely important. But I do think that's where the episode retroactively shows its weakness. Examining Dr. Pershing establishes and fleshes out both Gideon's interest in clones and his desire to keep this secret from the public. It's significant foreshadowing...

...for a not very significant plot point. Basically nothing ever comes of Gideon's Force-clones. They amount to an unfinished super-weapon that Din destroys before it can be completed, forcing Gideon to stare into the screen and explain what the plot was going to be before the protagonists violently strangled it in its crib.

At that point, it might as well have been anything. A really cool Star Destroyer. A new Death Star. An army of conga-dancing Jar-Jars. It never saw the light of day so the specifics of what it would have been don't really matter that much. The characters that actually matter don't even learn that this is a thing until after they've already destroyed it!

And that really hurts the episode, in retrospect. It was a whole lot of setup to what amounted to an incredibly irrelevant plot point. Gideon's clones meant so little to the plot that they might as well have been cut entirely. It would change nothing.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 28th 2023 at 5:49:30 AM

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jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#3515: Apr 28th 2023 at 7:47:43 AM

That does of course presume that we have in fact seen the last of the clones.

Which we very probably have but there's always a tired little "one clone got away/there was another facility/somehow, Gideon has returned" twist just waiting to disappoint us.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3516: Apr 28th 2023 at 7:49:23 AM

[up][up]I mean, to be fair, there's still the theory that the Gideon we see isn't the only remaining Gideon, in which case the cloning focus could matter in future? I hope it doesn't because 'he returned as a clone who had his personality and skillset somehow' is bad enough for the Emperor, but terrible for non-Force user Gideon.

But I'm not sure I agree that there's value in 'this is Gideon, he's the big bad of this series' because we're going to see that in a couple episodes and it has, as you note, been properly foreshadowed. Also, I don't think it did kill that theorizing? I have distinct memories of there being some question which Imperial figure Kane was actually working for, but maybe I'm misremembering.

[up][up][up][up]I don't think such episodes are inherently stupid, but if you're doing serialized storytelling rather than episodic, which the Mandalorian very clearly is this season and you have an 8 episode run-time and you're trying to tell this story:

Djarin is exiled, earns redemption, discovers Mandalore is not cursed, is rescued by Bo Katan, returns with Bo Katan to the Children, Bo Katan temporarily converts and is accepted by the Children, is sent out to reunite the Mandalorians by the Armorer, succeeds in reuniting the Mandalorians, returns to Mandalore to reclaim it, discovers local survivors, discovers Gideon's operating his secret base out of Mandalore, defeats Gideon with Djarin and begins resettling Mandalore, while Djarin adopts Grogu, settles down in a new home and begins taking contracts from the New Republic to hunt down Imperial remnants.

You already have too much plot, having a day in the limelight for characters whose total accomplishments for the above plot could be replaced with two sentences (one of which is already in the show in Gideon's false claims to be uninterested in cloning) is, frankly, wasteful.

Edited by ECD on Apr 28th 2023 at 7:50:10 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#3517: Apr 28th 2023 at 8:24:34 AM

I don't think Ryan would have been so harsh on that episode had the show not also taken over Book of Boba Fett to reunite Din and Grogu. Which he also brings up.

Din is off taking huge leaps to advance his story in other people's shows, while his show apparently has time to waffle around doing this stuff. If the season has time for stuff like this, then it had time to do the stuff that matters to its main characters here.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 28th 2023 at 8:26:34 AM

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#3518: Apr 28th 2023 at 9:11:55 AM

Mind you I think that was more that the writers were just bored of writing watered down Fett. It's The strangest thing I've seen.

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jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#3519: Apr 28th 2023 at 9:46:20 AM

[up][up] Again, part of the theory that the show got a stealth Retool to include plots and developments that were originally planned for other shows.

They've got certain beats to hit but we're not actually following the original timeline/plot line as first planned.

Edited by jakobitis on Apr 28th 2023 at 5:47:32 PM

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#3520: Apr 28th 2023 at 10:38:24 AM

Quick question: if one Force Clone gets away or Gideon somehow reappears…what’s the threat here?

“Gideon with an army of Force Clones” sounds, as the meme goes, like an Avengers-level threat.

Just the guy without his support structure that allowed him to do his magic or just the one Force Clone, that’s more of a Superfriends-level threat. A little dangerous but more in the way that a local serial killer is dangerous.

I wouldn’t personally want to tangle with them but they seem no more vulnerable to the arm of the law coming down on them-i.e. lasers. Lots and lots and lots of lasers coming from lots of people that have the building surrounded, come out with your hands up.

I would be highly amused if he pulls a Dr. Gero and makes Force Clones in a cave almost a decade later that compare to Anakin and Palpatine as Yoda compares to Groot.

Edited by fredhot16 on Apr 28th 2023 at 2:09:09 AM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#3521: Apr 28th 2023 at 10:48:13 AM

To be honest, I would have loved an old-school Mandalorin vs. Force-User brawl with Din and Bo-Katan duking it out against a Force-wielding Gideon, or even an army battle with the combined might of Mandalore colliding against the army of Force Gideons. That sounds amazing.

But I don't expect to see any of this again. In contrast to seasons one and two, season three ends on a pretty definitive note. They wouldn't have wrapped things up so decisively if they meant to still be telling this story next season. Gideon's done for good this time.

Season four will probably still have the Imperial Remnant making problems, probably set up for Thrawn, and might feature New Mandalore or whatever as an allied faction Din can go chat with. But this whole "Mandalorians vs. Gideon for the fate of Mandalore" thing is done.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 28th 2023 at 10:49:54 AM

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DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#3522: Apr 28th 2023 at 11:01:16 AM

I mean, being Force-sensitive doesn't automatically mean you can also use it. tongue

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Apr 28th 2023 at 8:02:35 PM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#3523: Apr 28th 2023 at 11:05:58 AM

  • Bo-Katan: Jedi had to train for decades to be able to do things like this. How are you doing it!?
  • Gideon: The original version of me studied lots of holocrons on Jedi philosophy. So he was already a fully-fledged master of the Jedi arts who only needed the extra spark of Force Sensitivity to become one of the most powerful, formidable, and highly-trained Force Users ever to have existed.
  • Din: Seriously. That's what we're going with?
  • Gideon: It was good enough for Zaheer, was it not?

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 28th 2023 at 11:07:13 AM

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EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#3524: Apr 28th 2023 at 11:12:19 AM

Honestly I would buy it as an explanation.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#3525: Apr 28th 2023 at 11:17:52 AM

If we ignore that non-Force users can't actually open Holocrons. Heck, even Force users can't always open a Holocron, if they don't have the right mindset for it.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Apr 28th 2023 at 8:18:20 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history

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