I remember that the ending of the first game involves our protagonist killing Diablo, taking the Soulstone out of Leoric's son, and stabbing it into their own forehead. Then in Diablo II that protagonist becomes Diablo themselves. In D2's expansion, Baal conquers Arreat and forces Tyrael to destroy the Worldstone to stop him.
So when you say that the series hasn't always been dark and bleak, I have to wonder if you were playing the same games as the rest of us.
I'm also not clear why Diablo III got so many people upset. I've never been obsessively into the lore, but I know most of it, and there's nothing in that game's story that contradicts anything significant or introduces themes that are out of keeping with the rest of the series.
Sure, people had issues with its gameplay, but I don't see what that has to do with the tone.
My one particular irritation is that, in the thirty (?) years between III and IV, apparently the High Heavens reneged on Tyrael's promise to cooperate with humans and shut everything down, so now we're on our own. I didn't quite get why that happened and the game doesn't bother to explain it. "The Nephalem were hunted down" doesn't really answer anything — why did more not continue to be born, and what happened to my character, whom I last recall killing Malthael?
I also miss the lore journal from III, as it was nice to learn more about the world in that manner. I guess it disappeared with the Nephalem.
Edited by Fighteer on Nov 6th 2023 at 2:03:16 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I understand that these two endings are Downer and Bittersweet, respectively, and I never meant the series "hasn't always been dark". Gheed's jokes about smoking weed aside, Diablo is indeed supposed to be a dark series. It's just that the new flavor of dark doesn't really add up to me. When I look at the first two games, I don't picture The Dung Ages, declining civilizations, and Humans constantly at each others' throats. I also don't picture Chosen Ones, wacky teams of evil-slayers for hire, One-Man Army Invincible Hero, and comical snarky dialogue (though, admittedly, the last part is also present to some degree in the first two games if you don't Play the Game, Skip the Story).
When I think of Diablo I picture a great evil that found a foothold in the human world. That lurks in every shadow, its minions infesting the darkest recesses of forgotten ruins, awaiting to carry out their master's nefarious plans. I picture great treasures and fools who want to claim them from the clutches of beasts that dwell away from human settlements. I might be nuts, but I think Darkest Dungeon executed this concept well many years after Diablo 1 and 2 came out.
tl;dr: Diablo isn't Tragedy, it's Action Horror
You keep using the term "POV". I do not think it means what you think it means.I heard someone say Darkest Dungeon and I arrived as soon as I could
Darkest Dungeon mentioned:

Edited by AoeAbility on Nov 6th 2023 at 11:44:56 AM
You keep using the term "POV". I do not think it means what you think it means.Saw some news today they've announced a Diablo TTRPG. That should be interesting; especially since it's supposedly using an "original core engine" for the mechanics. I wonder if it's a modified d20 system, or a 2d20 system, something like Savage Worlds' system or something entirely different.
Maybe they'll have microtransactions cooked in, like "to do this action, you must give your DM $2."
Again, I think we're missing a few elements. Even before the first Diablo game, the Zakarum became corrupted by Mephisto and started sacrificing everybody they came across.
The world of Sanctuary is an accident, created by a rogue angel and demon as a refuge from the Eternal Conflict. Upon its discovery it was coveted by the Hells and reviled by the Heavens. The angels are not our protectors; they are our judges and executioners.
The Evils will always return no matter what we do. Kill them, they are reborn; trap them, they escape. The Heavens watch on, uncaring. The only ones trying to do anything are Tyrael, who is exiled for the attempt, and Lilith, who wants to turn humanity into her personal army against the Hells.
What part of this was ever anything but the darkest possible of Gothic horror?
Edited by Fighteer on Nov 6th 2023 at 2:55:54 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"![]()
Coincidentally, it happened less than a week after I came up with an idea to make a D&D homebrew based on the first two games.
Goddammit Bliz, you idea thief.
Keep in mind, most of these details (excluding Zakarum corruption, which also was aided by a Prime Evil) were added after the second game. Mephisto and Diablo were originally supposed to be defeated (at least in the mortal realm) in the second game, if Cain and Tyrael are to be trusted. The details on sanctuary's creation were added much later (Inarius was originally just a vain rebel angel who openly deceived his followers), and though Heaven was implied to be a bunch of uncaring assholes since the beginning, it's not like Tyrael doesn't exist either, and he didnt at least somewhat aid the player in defeating Diablo and Baal, who, mind you, did not turn you evil or insane.
DD protags certainly did, but keep in mind, it's a good example of what new diablo should be imo
Edited by AoeAbility on Nov 6th 2023 at 12:07:21 PM
You keep using the term "POV". I do not think it means what you think it means.Well, the player has to be "special" in these stories because there's not much point in an heroic fantasy (even if it's dark fantasy) if your character is corrupted by the demons like everyone else. If you want to carry on that narrative, the PC in Diablo III is explicitly special by way of being a Nephalem. The PC in Diablo IV is "marked" by Lilith without becoming corrupted by her (that we know of) without even the excuse of being a Nephalem.
The three PCs of the first game are canonically either corrupted by Diablo (the Warrior) or turned into elite enemies in the second game, and the second game's PC(s) are never heard from again.
I'm trying to figure out when in your mind the Diablo franchise has ever been "hopeful".
Edited by Fighteer on Nov 6th 2023 at 3:11:46 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I never said that. I believe we're just thinking too hard in terms of black and whites of Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism, Sliding Scale of Silliness vs. Seriousness, Sliding Scale of Shiny Versus Gritty, etc. Where this is a problem outside of the spectrum. Yume Nikki and Silent Hill are both obviously dark games, and even though you could argue one of them is "darker", you have to keep in mind that both games' idea of dark is different, and they create different moods, and tones, and atmospheres.
You keep using the term "POV". I do not think it means what you think it means.I'm saying that you haven't established any facts about D4's tone and setting that aren't also present in the other games (to a greater or lesser degree). You're presenting your "feelings" on the matter as if they should be obvious.
Your feelings are your own, and I won't challenge them, but I don't understand the basis. D4 is dark, sure, but the whole franchise is dark and the only difference I see is that each game in the series has significantly more complex storytelling (and more developed characters) than previous ones.
Edited by Fighteer on Nov 6th 2023 at 3:31:34 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Fine. I'm sorry for that. I just didn't quite know where else to go with these opinions. Maybe even I'm wording them incorrectly. Still, you're right in that I have no factual basis for this opinion, for this is an opinion based on taste and one's interpretation of the work. Justifying my opinion based on facts is pretty difficult in this case, as different things mean different things to different people.
Edited by AoeAbility on Nov 6th 2023 at 12:35:04 PM
You keep using the term "POV". I do not think it means what you think it means.Honestly I sorta thought of Diablo 1 as the only truly dark one because it's the only one where the heroes ultimately fail and their actions lead to the events of the second. By contrast, despite what happens in 2, in ultimately leads to the birth of the Nephilim and thus the one who could stop the chaos that happens in 3, otherwise Malthael might very well have wiped out humanity (I could be wrong on that, I don't recall if his actions were influenced by the events of 2). Too early to tell where 4 ends up since the story isn't over yet.
To be fair, very few franchises (game, book, film, TV series) have their entire future story with all of the plot twists and character beats written out before the first installment drops. Malthael's betrayal was written for Diablo III — and was certainly planned from the start of that game, given his absence from the Angiris Council — but there's no reason to think that the writers of Diablo II considered it.
It's certainly possible that the writers who retconned Inarius and Lilith into being the Father and Mother of Sanctuary, with all the attendant drama, had in mind that she might become an antagonist of a future game, of course, but any good writer will leave themselves plenty of hooks of that nature.
I had not heard about that bit of trivia, but it's all the more amusing for being proof of what I just said here.
Edited by Fighteer on Nov 6th 2023 at 4:01:58 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"The funny thing for me is how that was never planed? the cutscene team went rogue, and the game's director was "WTF is this". They debated not keeping the cutscene and decided to roll with it. It's how D2 happened.
By the way, Uber Lilith is absolute BS. None of the other bosses have instant-kill attacks that require immunities or perfect dodging precision. Way to force players to adopt completely different strategies than what they're used to.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"![]()
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Not only do the heroes fail, they all canonically become corrupted and broken by what happened in Tristram.
- The Mage becomes obsessed with demons and ultimately becomes the Summoner who unleashes a horde of demons on another city.
- The Rogue becomes Blood Raven, a follower of Andariel who butchers her own former Sisters.
- And of course there's the Warrior aka Prince Aiden, who becomes Diablo himself.
When I replayed the first Diablo a while ago, I named the Warrior I played as Aiden, to get a better feel for the lore. I didn't increase his Magic skill at all.
Because -makes Yakko Warner's "thinking it over" sound- I don't think that guy was a magician.
Season 4 itemization update summary, via Wowhead
:
- Less loot, higher quality
- Unused/stupid affixes removed
- Remaining affix values adjusted to make them feel stronger (e.g., skill ranks).
- Legendary and Unique items will be tradable until they are enchanted/customized.
- World Tier 3 will only drop Sacred items, World Tier 4 will only drop Ancestral items.
- Legendary items will have 3 affixes, Rare will have 2.
- Most Uniques can drop in any World Tier; Uber Uniques can drop as early as level 55 in WT3 and are no longer linked to specific bosses.
- Legendary items from monster level 95+ will always drop at 925 item power.
- Uber Uniques will always drop at IP 925 regardless of level.
- More unique items
- Codex of Power
- Will store all Legendary Aspects rather than a subset.
- Unlock Aspects in the Codex when you Salvage them. Each Aspect can be upgraded by Salvaging Legendary items of higher base power.
- (Seems like this will replace Extracting Aspects. Good!)
- Greater Affixes can roll on Ancestral items with 1.5x power.
- Greater Affixes can be Enchanted away but cannot be gained via Enchanting.
- Occultist Enchanting cost cap added
- Tempering is a new crafting system allowing extra Affixes to be added.
- These will be new and will drop from Manuals during content.
- When you Temper an item, you can add up to two affix categories to it (e.g. Weapon, Offensive) and a "build" category. The affix will be randomly determined based on those selections.
- You can reroll Tempers a certain number of times per item.
- Masterworking replaces Upgrading
- 12 ranks per item; each rank will either upgrade all affixes slightly or a single affix by a lot
- You can reset Masterworking for an item but won't get back the materials.
In general, it looks like it's going to be easier to sort through gear for upgrades and to customize gear to your playstyle. Still gonna be a grind for the best Greater Affixes, though.
Edited by Fighteer on Mar 20th 2024 at 5:39:42 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Diablo IV season 4 PTR update notes
Everything discussed above is here, plus the usual round of class updates and bug fixes. Some things that I missed in my previous post:
- Helltides are getting some enhancements.
- Players will generate Threat as they kill monsters and open Tortured Gifts. As your Threat increases, you'll get ambushed by harder monsters. At maximum, a boss will be summoned and your Threat will reset.
- Players may perform an Accursed Ritual using Hearts dropped from Tortured Gifts to summon a boss.
- Helltide zones will have weaker versions in World Tier I and II.
- The Pit is an uncapped, timed dungeon that unlocks once you complete a Tier 46 Nightmare Dungeon. It drops high-end crafting materials and summoning materials for Uber bosses.
- Echo of Andariel added as an Uber boss comparable to Echo of Duriel.
- New affix pool includes Life Per Hit, Resource Per Second, and Basic Skill Ranks.
Edited by Fighteer on Mar 28th 2024 at 2:55:11 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Season 4 is now live. Let's all share our thoughts on the improved loot. Not sure when I'll be able to play, though.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"So there's nothing wrong with all the "legacy" stuff I now have, it's just going to be outclassed really soon once I start playing.
I'm Charlie Owens, good night and good luck. PSNID: CEOIII 1117Well, I can already see one effect of the new gearing system. It is much easier — to the point of triviality — to settle on a build with a specific set of legendary powers and enchant each new piece of gear to fit that build. Definitely makes the game feel a little more static by level 40 or so, but also more predictable.
Since you no longer have to hoard specific items to extract their powers, my bank is far cleaner.
Past a certain point, build variation seems like it'll almost entirely be determined by your Uniques. But it's also a ton easier to swap builds.
Whispers continue to break the gold acquisition curve over an iron fence. Started a new Seasonal character, struggled to pay for basic services and maintain more than 3K gold. Then I completed my first Whisper Cache and pulled out half a million. The Whisper economy is fuuuuuucked. Not that I really mind, though.
Gold is a nuisance currency: you don't notice until/unless you run out, and then it's trivial to pop a Whisper to refill. I guess it only really matters in trading with other players,
Edited by Fighteer on May 16th 2024 at 3:00:21 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Haven't had a chance to play the new season yet (my usual groupmate from the days of Diablo III isn't free until tomorrow), but I've already taken the opportunity to melt down my legacy items. Bit of a shame, I had some impeccable pieces there, and farming for the replacement Uniques may be trickier than I anticipated since I've gone from "semi-reliably handing Uber Duriel his own backside" to "very reliably having my backside handed to me" (I've been planning build overhauls for several of my characters for a while anyway, but those overhauls are contingent on getting certain Uniques). That said, whatever my misgivings about the new Codex of Power, it's nice not to have several stash tabs' worth of Aspects for potential gear upgrades and/or future characters, but instead to have steady access to the better numbers for Aspects. (Still seem to get a lot of useless items dropping, but that's always the way.)
Helltide also feels a lot more impactful now, though I'm glad I don't play on Hardcore mode, as between the Hellborne that spawn at Threat Level Midnight (as I've already started calling it) and the Blood Maidens, I've also been dying more often.
It's taking some getting used to, but so far, I'm cautiously optimistic that I'll like the "new" game.

I feel like I'm alone in this, so I will use this as a vent opportunity.
Diablo doesn't feel like Diablo anymore.
I don't know if it's because of Diablo III being something of an Audience-Coloring Adaptation. I don't' know if it's because of the Devs desperately trying to keep the franchise fresh. I just know that Diablo IV, despite being presented as a "return to the series's roots", feels completely alienated from what I recognize from what people consider "the good Diablo". Sure, the new setting sure is dark, but when I ask myself about the Diablo flavor of dark, I do not picture "bleak" and "depressing". The setting has felt increasingly smaller over the years, and its lore feels more and more bloated. Overall, I'm tired of the new Diablo, but can find no way to stop obsessing over the series's decline over the past 10 years.
You keep using the term "POV". I do not think it means what you think it means.