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Hello and welcome! This here thread is a spoiler-free zone!

Things that are acceptable here:

  • Trailers and trailer speculation
  • Discussion of Star Wars movies and shows, and what we would like to see/not like to see in them.
  • Discussion about anything and everything Star Wars, just...no spoilers.

Things that are not-acceptable here:

  • Spoilers! No talking about the leaks!
  • Being mean! If you disagree with someone's opinion, try not to come across as mean or rude.

And here. we. go.

    Original text of OP 
Hello and welcome! This here thread is a spoiler-free zone! Because I didn't want to be tempted to read anymore spoilers for Rise of Skywalker!

Things that are acceptable here:

  • Trailers and trailer speculation
  • Discussion of the Star Wars movies and what we would like to see/not like to see in them.
  • Discussion about anything and everything Star Wars, just...no spoilers.

Things that are not-acceptable here:

  • Spoilers! No talking about the leaks!
  • Being mean! If you disagree with someone's opinion, try not to come across as mean or rude.

And here. we. go.

Rise of Skywalker Final Trailer:

Mr. Sunday's Ten Easy To Miss Details in Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Final Trailer Breakdown):

This cool mashup of Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker and Avengers: Endgame trailers:

And also here's a trailer for The Mandalorian:

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 31st 2024 at 8:23:29 PM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#21251: Jul 8th 2022 at 2:53:43 PM

I maintain my belief that Carrie Fisher’s death was the source of much of not most of TROS’s issues. Since Fisher died, Leia has to as well. This also means Kylo can’t be the Final Boss anymore without ALL of the Sky-Solos coming to ignominious ends, so you need a new one of those. So they take a page from the Clone Saga’s book and bring back the ONE character who is enough of a Diabolical Mastermind that it would make any modicum of sense to be behind the convoluted plot.

Supposedly this is also why Rose was Demoted to Extra - she was originally going to be Mission Control, relaying messages between Leia at the base and the main trio off on their adventure, but the scenes in question proved too hard to shoot without Fisher actually BEING there…

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#21252: Jul 8th 2022 at 3:01:20 PM

I mean even with more scenes keeping Rose all the way from the rest of the leads is still Demoted to Extra.

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#21253: Jul 8th 2022 at 3:05:54 PM

Yeah.

I don't think this would be the last of Rose tho.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#21254: Jul 8th 2022 at 3:07:00 PM

TROS was dealt a very rough hand in a lot of ways...and played it incredibly poorly. I honestly don't have a great solution, but the obvious one would be to have her die earlier. Everyone talks up how thanks to her leadership, the tide is turning, the path to victory is possible, we have a chance as long as Leia's in command to pull everyone together, then the entire base is destroyed by the First Order and we're scrambling for a new path to victory, or to carry out Leia's final plan/wishes, or whatever.

Edited by ECD on Jul 8th 2022 at 4:06:43 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#21255: Jul 8th 2022 at 3:34:41 PM

[up]* 4 Carrie's death didn't help but I doubt it's the cause for Kylo not being the big bad.

TLJ hadn't left anything for Kylo to do as big bad as far as I can tell neither it or nor TFA really established what he wanted beyond being Vader 2.0.

So TROS was stuck handling Carrie's death, reversing everything TLJ (which it didn't have to do)and setting up and knocking down a new big bad. No wonder it's a total mess.

But yes it all loops back to 'should have planned from start'. Then Even if it had bad ideas it could have executed them reasonably well.

etA:

ROTS was dealt a very rough hand in a lot of ways...and played it incredibly poorly

Truer words have not been spoken.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 8th 2022 at 11:35:43 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#21256: Jul 8th 2022 at 3:38:52 PM

I think when you don't have Emperor Palpatine making his speech on-camera but in Fortnite, you have not only missed a pass but lost the ball.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#21257: Jul 8th 2022 at 3:47:34 PM

[up]

Yeah, that one still gets me.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#21258: Jul 8th 2022 at 3:50:22 PM

TLJ hadn't left anything for Kylo to do as big bad as far as I can tell neither it or nor TFA really established what he wanted beyond being Vader 2.0.

To be fair, we didn’t really know what Anakin/Vader intended to do either when he gloated he would kill the Emperor and rule the galaxy. Knowing them, he and Kylo would probably take the throne, get bored, then start ordering whatever purge they felt like.

The way I expected, the burgeoning plotline was that with Kylo in charge, Hux would start a civil war within the First Order to take the throne for himself.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jul 8th 2022 at 3:53:02 AM

uncertanSearcher It's always Season of the Witch from Germany Since: Oct, 2017
It's always Season of the Witch
#21259: Jul 8th 2022 at 3:51:27 PM

[up][up][up]But they mentioned it in the title crawl, thats totally enough right?tongue

Edited by uncertanSearcher on Jul 8th 2022 at 12:51:44 PM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#21260: Jul 8th 2022 at 3:55:16 PM

[up][up] Yeah but the plot never put Vader in a position where his vague goals could be acted on. If he had been made Emperor in episode III it would be a different matter.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#21261: Jul 8th 2022 at 4:05:44 PM

@ECD I think you mean TROS, not ROTS.

Leviticus 19:34
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#21262: Jul 8th 2022 at 4:05:58 PM

[up][up][up][up]Except by the end of TLJ, Hux had been reduced to such a figure of farce that it's impossible to imagine anyone else following him.

[up]Yep. Darn acronyms. I'll edit.

Edited by ECD on Jul 8th 2022 at 4:06:32 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#21263: Jul 8th 2022 at 4:08:55 PM

They said the same thing about Kylo and in one movie he took over the First Order, or Anakin back in the prequel days and now everyone wants him back, so nothing’s out of the reach of the script.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jul 8th 2022 at 4:10:29 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#21264: Jul 8th 2022 at 4:27:53 PM

Hux was ALWAYS a joke, though.

But he's willing to butcher whole planets.

As Cobra Commander shows, you don't need to be evil and respectable. You can be evil and a joke and still be a great villain.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#21265: Jul 8th 2022 at 4:34:59 PM

[up][up]I mean, Kylo did, in fact butcher Snoke and his guards and has repeatedly led from the front in combat. Hux is a functionary who has lost literally every ship/base he has ever visibly commanded. Kylo is legitimately frightening. Hux, especially after TLJ is comic relief.

[up]Not if you want a believable story of an enemy civil war. Hux vs. Kylo is a story that...well, we saw the end of it when Hux was summarily executed. The only difference would be that he'd have been beheaded rather than shot.

Edited by ECD on Jul 8th 2022 at 4:35:51 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#21266: Jul 8th 2022 at 4:53:30 PM

I could easily see Kylo Ren losing control of the First Order and being put on the run because, it turns out, they were all loyal to Hux when Ren wasn't present.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#21267: Jul 8th 2022 at 4:54:43 PM

Personally if I were to go with a First Order Civil War, I'd have it so that Kylo Ren is running the place into the ground which is causing people to support Hux.

Leviticus 19:34
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#21268: Jul 8th 2022 at 4:56:29 PM

[up]If you say so, but one thing about regimes like this is that they're fanatically concerned about appearances and Hux has been repeatedly embarrassed by his enemies, his superiors and basically everyone he meets, in front of his own troops. For anyone who comes up in a First-Order-Like system, that is just an announcement of weakness that undermines respect/loyalty/power.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#21269: Jul 8th 2022 at 4:58:15 PM

[up]

That's not how autocratic regimes work, though. The Leader is impossible to embarass and anyone who calls out his failures is a traitor.

I mean, look at Trump.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#21270: Jul 8th 2022 at 5:11:21 PM

[up]I disagree. The leadership tends to be extremely image conscious, because their power depends upon projecting infallibility. In this case, Snope directly humiliates Hux in front of his bridge crew, immediately after Hux has been humiliated by his enemies.

As for your real world example, we're drifting off topic, but the point is that Hux isn't Trump in the analogy. Snoke is. Hux is a repeatedly publicly embarrassed and defeated subordinate, why would anyone follow him?

ETA: The broader problem here is just the small scale of this galaxy-spanning organization. In a more realistically sized one, Hux would be torn apart by his competitors for his failures the moment his patron (who is still Snoke, throughout) is dead. Which is, to be fair, mostly what happens, just in a very weird way.

Edited by ECD on Jul 8th 2022 at 5:13:27 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#21271: Jul 8th 2022 at 5:19:38 PM

If one really insists, they could go the Pryde route where it’s another new officer attempting to usurp Kylo and take the First Order from him. But characters like Boba Fett have come back from embarrassing showings before. Ultimately I’d view the stakes in an Enemy Civil War plot to be less if Hux or whoever has a chance of winning and more if the Resistance has a chance to capitalize on the internal unrest and topple the whole regime before Kylo kills more people.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#21272: Jul 8th 2022 at 5:43:40 PM

I think after TLJ, Lucasfilm had a perfect set up for Kylo as the final boss of the trilogy, an entitled self-destructing maniac with his finger on the wheel of the largest force for destruction in the galaxy (that is, the fleet of the First Order), who basically has to be put down before his insane meltdown causes not only his death but burns the galaxy down in the process.

They could've done loads with that. An Enemy Civil War, a "rats leaving the ship" plot with the First Order, a plot about how the fighting has gotten more chaotic over time as the First Order fractures under Kylo's reign, all leading up to a finale where everything is falling apart around them and Kylo still won't let go and Rey is forced to finish him.

In short, he would've been a great Caligula.

Ultimately, Kylo's entire personality in all three movies suffered by the attempted cultivation of and reaction to fan fervor. He was conceived as a character who would capture Vader's success in a bottle. The second film basically pushed to emphasize who he was in what's always felt to me like an needless Jossing of fan theories. And the third film was an acquiescing to fan theories, resulting in an obligatory face turn (and romantic moment, ugh) to satisfy what the crowd was shouting.

The result is a mess, and it gets even worse when you add the additional works that tried valiantly to explain his backstory in the midst of all that. I tend to think that everything in the ST is salvageable with enough legwork and elbow grease, but Kylo is such a walking snarl that he might be the exception. He's just so difficult to approach, and since he's dead anyway it might not be worth it to try.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#21273: Jul 8th 2022 at 5:47:18 PM

[up] Honestly, a number of plot threads in the sequels seemed like deliberate attempts to appease the fanbase's toxic wing, even in TFA (can't have "boring politics scenes" if the politics explodes!); almost as though the creatives were afraid of the fanbase... and considering what happened to Ahmed Best...

Kelly Marie Tran outright stated that she was afraid angry fans would come after her in real life, and I have to wonder if others shared that sentiment too...

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#21274: Jul 8th 2022 at 5:49:49 PM

[up]

Though it's worth noting that "appeasing the fanbase" basically meant "appeasing the loudmouths who're non-stop pumping out stupid takes on YouTube". tongue

So-called "critics" on YouTube have been a flight on fandoms for decades, to be honest.

What's still funny to me how this approach kinda completely ignores that Clone Wars exists, a show that was all about the prequel era and had plenty of "boring politics".

That stuff isn't actually as unpopular as some people love to claim - but the people who're loud don't like it and sadly, being really vocal about something makes you look like a majority. :|

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Jul 8th 2022 at 2:51:43 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#21275: Jul 8th 2022 at 5:53:32 PM

[up] "What you know matters less than the volume with which what you don't know's expressed." - Zinnia Wormwood, philosopher(?)


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