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US Politics - Impeachment Proceedings

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This thread is intended for a civil, focused discussion on the various impeachment proceedings of President Trump and others in the administration.

Keep in mind that this is a narrowly focused thread, created to more closely manage this topic of discussion. The pros and cons of said impeachment were soft-banned in the General US Politics thread for a few months, due to incessant arguing. However, there is a high desire to discuss said events and it is of such high prominence that we are willing to give this devoted thread a try.'

Things to keep in mind:

  • This is about impeachment, votes on, investigations on, inquiries in, articles on, etc. Other American political discussions should go into the General Politics thread.
  • Standard rules apply. Civility and appropriate forum conduct are paramount.
  • Circular arguments about pros/cons are what got the topic banned in the first place. If we feel it's going circular, we will intervene. Multiple intercessions will not be looked on kindly.
  • As for that intervention, mods will be monitoring and moderating this thread more closely due to the nature of the topic, and its history in the General Politics thread. We will warn and thump in an effort to keep this thread on-topic and civil, but we are more than willing to lock it if people aren't willing to course-correct.

This thread doesn't have to be a case of Why Fandom Can't Have Nice Things, but it will be, if necessary.

Edited by nombretomado on Sep 26th 2019 at 5:19:24 AM

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#151: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:17:19 PM

[up][up]Hey, now: familiarizing somebody with how the political process works isn't treatment, as such.

And many people would benefit from a quick course in how impeachment is designed to work and how this one is playing out.

Being anxious over this? Is a perfectly valid response. As is learning more about the process to make the unknown monster more of a known bugbear.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 3rd 2019 at 10:18:20 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#152: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:24:19 PM

You’re asking someone for the details of what it is that’s getting to them, I don’t have a mental health first aid guide next to me right now but come on.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#153: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:31:15 PM

Specifically what about the impeachment procedure is particularly scary because it's a great big unknown, yes.

Break it down, describe, explore and learn. This is basic teaching around a complex topic, not just CBT 101.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#154: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:31:47 PM

In actual news, the special envoy to Ukraine who quit the other day is testifying before the House right now.

Early reports from right wingers were saying that the whole thing was turning out to be a nothingburger, but the latest news says the envoy warned Giuliani that his "dirt" on Biden was not credible. And that he thought "it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign."

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#155: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:38:21 PM

[up]For a nothingburger, even Fox will have to admit that that looks uncomfortably like a bacon strip.

I doubt it's going to be the only one to drop in the next few days. Not just from the Ukrainian side of things.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 3rd 2019 at 10:39:59 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#156: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:47:05 PM

I was originally fairly pessimistic on the chances of impeachment delivering a win for the Democrats, but the public has come around on it in a truly major way. We’re at the point now where they’d probably hurt themselves more by not impeaching.

I think it helps that this most recent scandal is both very simple and undeniably connected to Trump compared to previous scandals.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:47:37 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#157: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:51:30 PM

[up]Yup. This is definitely a paradigm shift in public opinion in progress.

Those always take time to build, then snap into place quickly when the pressure to change hits peak.

PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#158: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:56:25 PM

I personally feel like the question of whether or not they should attempt to impeach isn't really relevant because Democrats have already decided to go through with it. At this point, I'd rather them see it through to the end rather than change their minds. I'm just waiting to see how this whole thing develops.

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#159: Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:06:23 PM

[up][up] The thing is, the question has always primarily been one of public opinion. The chances of impeachment leading to Trump’s removal from office seem slim to none, what really matters is how this affects elections for the Democrats going forward.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:06:57 AM

They should have sent a poet.
MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#160: Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:10:05 PM

So the consensus seems to be:

Impeachment will not likely remove Trump from office, but it WILL likely contribute to the possibility of his defeat next year.

Is that about right?

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#161: Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:12:32 PM

That's it. Keep the faith, we can win in the end.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#162: Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:15:47 PM

[up][up]I'd put it more like "if the Senate doesn't pick up on the sea-change in public opinion" about the impeachment. If it does (which it has a history of doing, even despite people like Mitch), then impeachment before the election is actually achievable.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 3rd 2019 at 11:16:58 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#163: Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:15:57 PM

It’s worth keeping in mind how the impeachment process works. The House votes to impeach, and if they do the articles of impeachment go to the Senate which then holds a trial and votes on whether to remove the president from office. An impeachment is basically like an indictment, not necessarily a guilty verdict.

The House voting to impeach seems likely. The Senate voting to remove does not.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:18:05 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#164: Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:16:52 PM

[up][up][up][up]Exactly right, the House Dems are going to take an already damning situation and shine an even brighter light on it.

And the public is going to see, and when the Republicans shut it down then the public is going to remember and in 2020 they're going to vote.

Things could go very badly for the Republicans.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:17:17 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#165: Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:26:24 PM

[up]Which is why Republican senators have an interest in breaking with the leader and actually voting for impeachment.

Well, the ones who do have their noses to the winds of public opinion, at least. tongue

The rest? <shrugs> Going down with the bad ship Turtle, most likely.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 3rd 2019 at 11:29:14 AM

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#166: Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:48:41 PM

Public opinion seems about 45-45 last I saw from 538 (with some still reserving judgement), so it’s not a groundswell of opinion large wnough to make the Republicans back impeachment. But it does suggest the public are taking it seriously for the moment.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#167: Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:59:21 PM

[up]Give it a week of onion, pickle, tomato, two patties, cheese, special sauce and bacon landing on the investigation's sesame bun.

Then see what the polls do.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#168: Oct 3rd 2019 at 4:03:11 PM

Which is why Republican senators have an interest in breaking with the leader and actually voting for impeachment.

Well, the ones who do have their noses to the winds of public opinion, at least. tongue

The rest? <shrugs> Going down with the bad ship Turtle, most likely.

Indeed, turning on Trump might be the least damaging option in the long run.

But, Republicans aren't really incentivized to consider the long run. Not with the Right-wing media+base ready to shank them if they so much as dare to turn against Trump.

So I'm personally predicting that the most likely thing to happen is that they'll lash themselves to the Evil Turtle's ship and pray desperately that not too many of them drown.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#169: Oct 3rd 2019 at 4:25:10 PM

Maybe I've been watching too much Columbo, but is it possible there isn't a whistle blower and it's an elaborate bluff?

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#170: Oct 3rd 2019 at 4:54:32 PM

It would be a pretty weird bluff to draw them into a trap only to have him publicly commit the crime twice a week later.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#171: Oct 3rd 2019 at 4:58:44 PM

To be frank, the idea that it's a bluff is Q Anon level nonsense.

And I mean that literally.

Without any exaggeration, I could easily imagine them pushing that kind of incoherent gibberish.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#172: Oct 3rd 2019 at 5:33:51 PM

[up][up][up]Um. How's about a massive Flat "What" on that one, mate?

Nah: this was a legit peewit on the ol' alert whistle.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#173: Oct 3rd 2019 at 6:07:26 PM

The funny thing about Trump asking China to "investigate" Biden is that it wasn't too long ago that Hillary Clinton facetiously encouraged China to hack the IRS and get Trump's tax returns, saying that if Russia was going to help Trump, then it was only fair that China helped Democrats since apparently that wasn't illegal.

Considering how he's still obsessed with her, I can't imagine this didn't reach Trump and can only assume that the only thing he took from that interview was, "I can get China to help me in 2020!"

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#174: Oct 3rd 2019 at 8:38:22 PM

I wouldn't say it backfired. Especially since the Republicans took the Presidency in the next election.
IINM that had nothing to do with Bill Clinton himself and everything to do with Al Gore's own troubles in that election.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#175: Oct 3rd 2019 at 11:52:15 PM

It also came down to a lot of dodgy shit happening in Florida, as well as Gore making a mistake with asking for a recount that saw Bush win.

I'm not sure if enough Republicans in the Senate will cross the aisle to vote against Trump, but I imagine if the House Dems do a good enough job building the case against Trump and get enough popular support you will get more than a few. And before people bring up the current opinion polls for impeachment, Nixon had better polls in his favour at the start of the impeachment process and as more and more came to light the polls slowly but surely turned against him.


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