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Dec 2nd 2019 at 1:56:52 PM

[up] Hey, knowledge can come from anywhere.

Even a lot of cops don’t really understand how it works. A lot of departments simply require everyone who gets arrested to be mirandized as a matter of policy to avoid any problems, which is why it gets depicted that way in media.

Regardless, in the case Trump got arrested he would absolutely have to be mirandized because there’s no way a case that high profile would make it to court without an interrogation. That, and you could count on his defense to try anything and everything so better safe than sorry.

Edited by archonspeaks on Dec 2nd 2019 at 2:00:51 AM

HailMuffins Your orders? <3 from Ceará, Brazil Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
Your orders? <3
Dec 2nd 2019 at 2:09:51 PM

His defense might, Trump would probably do the persecution's job all by himself.

A classic, not some passing fad.
TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Exposition Dragon
Dec 2nd 2019 at 2:15:50 PM

It's long been an acknowledged fact by Democrats and Republicans alike that the instant Trump is placed under oath, that's checkmate. He is incapable of testifying for any length of time without perjuring himself multiple times over.

Somehow, Republicans have managed to spin this acknowledged reality as an attack against Democrats. They've defended against various attempts to get Trump under oath by ranting about "perjury traps", as though the President's inability to be honest for five seconds is somehow a malevolent Democrat scheme.

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
Protagonist506 from 'MURICA Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Dec 2nd 2019 at 2:20:29 PM

We all know Trump's character is heavily rigged against him.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Dec 2nd 2019 at 2:30:33 PM

I believe the more that it resembles a criminal proceeding, the more it will work against the Republicans as the whole attempt by Nunes to spin the trial did heavy damage to both Trump as well as the GOP.

Because they DO look like liars and criminals.

(Because they are but they're doing a bad job of acting like they're not)

Which is why arresting people like Nunes and Giuliani will help.

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
Dec 2nd 2019 at 2:34:22 PM

[up] We absolutely do not want it to look like a criminal proceeding, because if that’s the case when the Senate inevitably votes not to convict it won’t be “Senate republicans are hypocrites”, it’ll be “Trump not guilty”.

Impeachment is not a criminal process, and it doesn’t need to be for it to work.

CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Dec 2nd 2019 at 3:17:00 PM

If it's not treated as a criminal proceeding, you are saying it is not a crime.

You have exonerated Trump.

I believe this and the public should too. Any attempt to not treat what Trump has done as a political rather than criminal process is active collusion with him and means you believe he';s done nothing wrong.

If you don't act like what he's done is monstrous, illegal, and deserving of punishment then you might as well vote for him.

The GOP will win 2020 and they will have DESERVED TO.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 2nd 2019 at 3:19:13 AM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Exposition Dragon
Dec 2nd 2019 at 3:26:44 PM

Oh, for f*ck's sake.

You do recognize that there is a zero-percent chance of the Senate removing Trump from office, right? You actually want Trump to be found Not Guilty of all charges in a formal criminal proceeding?

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 2nd 2019 at 4:27:06 AM

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
PhysicalStamina i can't be bothered to make any new avatars from why are the roads so damn wide Relationship Status: It's so nice to be turned on again
i can't be bothered to make any new avatars
Dec 2nd 2019 at 3:27:02 PM

So, "Impeachment is a political process." = "Trump did nothing wrong."

Yeah, that's solid logic.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Dec 2nd 2019 at 3:32:29 PM

If it's not treated as a criminal proceeding, you are saying it is not a crime.

This... is incredibly silly.

Impeachment is not a criminal procedure, pretending otherwise will not magically acknowledge his crimes. It will just risk backfiring for exactly the reasons that others have said.

When a clearly political procedure ends in Trump's favor because of Republican votes then it will be clear that he got off purely because of political reasons, but if we make it look like a trial then to the less informed voters out there it will clearly look like Trump being tried and then acquitted.

It's a bad idea that entirely plays into their hands.

"Progress is a nice word. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies." -Robert Kennedy
Dec 2nd 2019 at 3:50:41 PM

If it's not treated as a criminal proceeding, you are saying it is not a crime.

This logic doesn’t even begin to make the slightest bit of sense. Impeachment doesn’t have to be a criminal proceeding for it to concern crimes committed.

Treating it as the political process it is not only allows us to air out all of Trump’s crimes but also keep the upper hand when the Senate inevitably votes against removal.

Dec 2nd 2019 at 3:56:20 PM

I'm with Charles on this one. My belief is that if it looks and feels like a criminal trial then it might dislodge some of the partisanship in the American public watching the trial on TV.

I honestly believe that Americans take their responsibility seriously when it comes to things like jury duty. The recent example was the Manafort trial: the press was surprised at how strong the verdicts were despite Trump voters being on the jury; despite the fact it had come directly from the "Muller witch-hunt"

That's why it needs to look like a trial: it needs to trigger that sense of duty in the viewing public, which hopefully overrides partisan sentiment. We need them to imagine that they are the jurors and to come to their own conclusions based solely on what they see in the courtroom.

On the assumption that the Democrats prosecute the case as calmly and rationally as they have done so far, with an emphasis on the facts then I think the public would be on the side of the prosecution.

Which means that when we get the party line vote to acquit it will be at odds with how the public would have voted. Which makes it a GOP stitch up and not a complete exoneration. Which makes a truly wonderful albatross to hang around the GOP's neck come November 2020.

Maybe I am too optimistic about the importance the American people place on the idea of a free and fair court system that judges cases based on facts alone. But if I am wrong and even that idea can be corrupted in the service of Donald Trump then I do think the American Experiment should be considered a failure. Those are the stakes we are dealing with here.

Dec 2nd 2019 at 4:05:51 PM

[up] Except the “jurors” here aren’t random people off the street, they’re Republican politicians. It doesn’t matter what it looks like, they’re never going to vote to remove Trump from office.

And when they vote not to remove in what appears to be a criminal trial, the message that’s going to go out is “Trump innocent on all charges”.

Edited by archonspeaks on Dec 2nd 2019 at 4:06:32 AM

PhysicalStamina i can't be bothered to make any new avatars from why are the roads so damn wide Relationship Status: It's so nice to be turned on again
i can't be bothered to make any new avatars
Dec 2nd 2019 at 4:32:07 PM

I'm with Charles on this one. My belief is that if it looks and feels like a criminal trial then it might dislodge some of the partisanship in the American public watching the trial on TV.

I honestly believe that Americans take their responsibility seriously when it comes to things like jury duty. The recent example was the Manafort trial: the press was surprised at how strong the verdicts were despite Trump voters being on the jury; despite the fact it had come directly from the "Muller witch-hunt"

That's why it needs to look like a trial: it needs to trigger that sense of duty in the viewing public, which hopefully overrides partisan sentiment. We need them to imagine that they are the jurors and to come to their own conclusions based solely on what they see in the courtroom.

I think you're giving the public more credit than they deserve. Presenting the hearings as a criminal trial is not going to convince one's Trump-supporting mother that he might be guilty any more than the way they have been presenting them.

Bur Chaotic Neutral from Flyover Country Relationship Status: Not war
Dec 2nd 2019 at 5:30:29 PM

Though the proceedings so far have convinced my Trump ambivalent mother of his guilt, for what it’s worth.

Edited by Bur on Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:30:56 AM

i. hear. a. sound.
Draghinazzo My love, has dressed me like a clown Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
My love, has dressed me like a clown
Dec 2nd 2019 at 5:45:40 PM

People who are ambivalent are the ones that we're concerned with, mostly. Trump diehards will seldom be convinced but low information/"neutral" voters and independents might be more easily persuaded.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine. ...not really though.
CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Dec 2nd 2019 at 5:46:48 PM

If they are crimes then they have to be treated like crimes for the public to treat them as crimes. I have no respect for people who want to treat what Trump is doing as other than a criminal proceeding because it's what they deserve.

We know the Republicans will acquit and we need to make it clear to America that it will be a Miscarriage of Justice.

Because if they don't see it that way, they will re-elect him. Pretending what he did is not a crime is doing the GOP's job for them. They're in Trump's pocket if they downplay it.

So, "Impeachment is a political process." = "Trump did nothing wrong."

All I'm hearing is "We don't think what Trump did is worthy of prosecution."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 2nd 2019 at 5:47:27 AM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
Draghinazzo My love, has dressed me like a clown Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
My love, has dressed me like a clown
Dec 2nd 2019 at 5:49:10 PM

[up]The Republicans are the ones who get to decide if Trump's actions are going to be punished, for all intents and purposes, not us, and we all know the foregone conclusion.

Beyond doing what's right for its own sake, this is also about showing people Trump's crimes as part of the process in an easily digestible way. Given the support for impeachment has been growing in the polls I believe it's working.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:53:45 AM

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine. ...not really though.
ShinyCottonCandy Actually sour cream from The Galar Region Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Actually sour cream
Dec 2nd 2019 at 5:53:02 PM

We know the Republicans will acquit and we need to make it clear to America that it will be a Miscarriage of Justice.

And how do we do that? If you ask me, legitimizing the republicans by putting them in the position of juror in the first place is the exact opposite of placing the guilt on them, but then I am admittedly probably the least knowledgeable person in the room as far as political fallout is concerned.

I need to think of a better signature.
Draghinazzo My love, has dressed me like a clown Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
My love, has dressed me like a clown
Dec 2nd 2019 at 5:57:30 PM

I mean the point is more or less that in the process of detailing Trump's crimes and investigating and punishing a bunch of his associates, the public will slowly be forced to see that Trump is corrupt (yes, there was plenty to show he was corrupt before this trial but low-information voters weren't likely to be aware of it). So when the Republicans fail to punish him, the public (more specifically independents and low information voters) will see that failure as them being complicit and abstain from voting for them, or vote blue in the next election to remove them from office. For democrats this will hopefully also get them angry and energize the base which is also very important.

Which, as I said, seems to be gradually happening as more people are in favor of impeachment. Though it's still too early to say what the consequences will be in the end.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 2nd 2019 at 10:03:18 AM

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine. ...not really though.
CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Dec 2nd 2019 at 6:10:23 PM

And how do we do that? If you ask me, legitimizing the republicans by putting them in the position of juror in the first place is the exact opposite of placing the guilt on them, but then I am admittedly probably the least knowledgeable person in the room as far as political fallout is concerned.

I think a pretty good job is being done now. Show that Trump is 100% guilty with testimony, evidence, and the fact this is being shown to the entirety of the world on television and then force them to show their lies.

People assume the jury vote is what matters and it's not. Look at OJ Simpson. We're far from, "Not Guilty=Exoneration."

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:02:52 PM

I think that the thing that you want, which is for a clear majority of Americans to treat Trump as a criminal, is simply not possible. He will never be considered a criminal by more than a majority of democrats, and some fraction of independents. I think you need to adjust your expectations of the US political system around that.

That said, he may very well actually be arrested and charged with real crimes, after he leaves office, but not before. He is not going to be removed by the Senate (absent an unexpected shift in voter preferences). Certain state prosecutors have ongoing investigations that could very well result in charges filed, in due time.

The purpose of the impeachment process is 1) To document and preserve the truth for future generations, so that history can record what Trump did and what the consequences for the nation were, 2) To impose a price for attempting to target the democratic front-runner for investigations using the power of public office and in the absence of any real evidence of criminal actions, 3) To tip the balance against Trump getting re-elected, and beyond that to help eventually take back the Senate.

To achieve these goals it is absolutely imperative to be governed and to appear to be governed by the rule of law at all times. We can afford to indulge neither wishful thinking nor political stunts. We are engaged in a long term machiavellian war of political hardball with the best resourced special interest group on Earth (not just Trump or even Trump's supporters). We may very well lose this round—if so, we just pick ourselves up and keep going. But we need to keep our core values intact, and that includes our faith in democracy. We lose that, and we lose anything worth struggling for.

Edited by DeMarquis on Dec 2nd 2019 at 10:04:08 AM

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."
Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:24:10 PM

While it might become common knowledge that the result of the impeachment was a "Republican Slimeballs Declare Fellow Republican Slimeball Totally Innocent," I'll admit I'm still skeptical of its political efficacy.

Apathy might be the biggest issue. Couldn't low information and independent voters - maybe even Trump voters - just write it off as "that's just how it works, and besides, wouldn't the Democrats just do the same thing anyways?" and just go back to focusing on whatever particular dogs they have in the fight? And that's not even getting into info silos.

As [up] kinda points out, it seems like it would necessitate a much more active distrust of our current democracy (which I'm not necessarily opposed to as long it comes with the effort to actually improve it), which might be a step too far for a lot of people.

Edited by Eschaton on Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:25:04 AM

CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:03:51 PM

I think part of the issue is that I'm in Kentucky and the impeachment hearings are a bombshell here that has caused a noticeable shift in the perception. People act like it's common knowledge Trump is a fraud, that he's a criminal, and that he's not actually a billionaire or guilty of all these accusations. They assume that nothing will reach his people and write them off. They assume that impeachment as a "political" process is there just to win voters. I have very ill feelings to those people.

The act of impeachment has had an affect and will continue to have an affect the more and more that it shows the corruption, crimes, and crimes on display. As far as the public knows, impeachment is the process you call to task a President for when they have committed crimes. Not because you dislike them but because they have done something that renders them unfit for it. Because that is how they remember Nixon. They also remember Clinton and the fact a witch hunt is something that can be done.

They need it hammered home that Trump is guilty, what he did was a crime, and that he's tried to cover it up. Part of this requires that you arrest his co-conspirators and treat THEM as criminals. Giluliani, Nunes, and more.

The GOP has broken every conceivable law and will continue to do it—the only way to stop them is to enforce the law on them. It's the only advantage Democrats have left.

The only way to stop Trump is not to let the RULE OF LAW be destroyed because the Republicans win illegality every time.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:06:25 AM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:12:56 PM

[up] If the situation you’re describing in Kentucky is the case, then treating this as a criminal proceeding will have the opposite effect you’re hoping for.


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