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US Politics - Impeachment Proceedings

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This thread is intended for a civil, focused discussion on the various impeachment proceedings of President Trump and others in the administration.

Keep in mind that this is a narrowly focused thread, created to more closely manage this topic of discussion. The pros and cons of said impeachment were soft-banned in the General US Politics thread for a few months, due to incessant arguing. However, there is a high desire to discuss said events and it is of such high prominence that we are willing to give this devoted thread a try.'

Things to keep in mind:

  • This is about impeachment, votes on, investigations on, inquiries in, articles on, etc. Other American political discussions should go into the General Politics thread.
  • Standard rules apply. Civility and appropriate forum conduct are paramount.
  • Circular arguments about pros/cons are what got the topic banned in the first place. If we feel it's going circular, we will intervene. Multiple intercessions will not be looked on kindly.
  • As for that intervention, mods will be monitoring and moderating this thread more closely due to the nature of the topic, and its history in the General Politics thread. We will warn and thump in an effort to keep this thread on-topic and civil, but we are more than willing to lock it if people aren't willing to course-correct.

This thread doesn't have to be a case of Why Fandom Can't Have Nice Things, but it will be, if necessary.

Edited by nombretomado on Sep 26th 2019 at 5:19:24 AM

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#126: Oct 3rd 2019 at 11:00:25 AM

That doesn't really sound like a defense without the rest of the quote. Honestly, this is classic Trump; it's the kind of self-sabotage we've come to know him for.
A fair point- a quote like that could go either way, but he was praising him.

“He feels there is some really suspicious, questionable stuff that Hunter Biden has done in his various roles around the world and he feels it is absolutely legitimate to ask foreign countries to investigate," (…) “It adds an interesting a little bit of spice to the trade dispute. Maybe again for the president, it’s a possible area of agreement between the U.S. and China, (…) “Against the background of pretty tough trade negotiations and a deteriorating economic relationship between the U.S. and China without any question, maybe this offers a little sunshine.”

Edited by speedyboris on Oct 3rd 2019 at 11:00:46 AM

SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#127: Oct 3rd 2019 at 11:37:56 AM

That is some troll logic indeed ._.

PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#128: Oct 3rd 2019 at 11:44:03 AM

Hmm. Well, this is the same publication that allowed an article from some anonymous nobody about how college campuses silencing hate speech is in itself hate speech, and another opining about how free speech is in danger because social media companies sometimes enact the bare minimum of quality control, so I'm not too surprised. Whatever misgivings we have about NYT could probably apply to WSJ as well.

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#129: Oct 3rd 2019 at 12:00:35 PM

I have a feeling that his legal team (the poor sods) is going to do anything and everything it can to keep him off the stand and convince him that its a BAD idea.

Remember the dust ups over a one on one with the Muller team? His lawyers at the time literally told Muller that it would be a disaster since in every mock interview prep he did he couldn't keep his story straight from question to question forget it being the right or 'true' answer, and even Trump was all for it to 'set the record straight'.

There was a reason why it was a revolving door of legal heads going in and out of the White House one got in there realized that Trump was a NIGHTMARE Client and ran for it (or was fired) as soon as possible.

Any testimony will be televised, and it will be meme fodder for DECADES, I fully expect a 'Pop Up Video' style fact check with a lie counter in the corner. It would be EPIC and should be giving the GOP HIVES.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#130: Oct 3rd 2019 at 12:07:40 PM

I point out that Trump is accused of an impeachable offense that everyone finally agrees is one.

And he's done it again, in public, since then twice.

Trump is incapable of believing he done something wrong so he's going to do it until everyone agrees it wasn't wrong.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#131: Oct 3rd 2019 at 12:21:55 PM

Isn’t Trump’s legal team just Giuliani at this point? Because he gets no sympathy from me, he’s a co-conspirator.

It looks like Trump is going full 5th Avenue at this point, I do wonder if should dirt fail to appear he will go further and call for other states to interfere more directly (via either direct vote manipulation or via violence).

I’m scared that this may end with Ukrainian (or more likely somewhere small like Moldova) embassy security attacking Hunter Biden on Trump’s orders.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#132: Oct 3rd 2019 at 12:26:31 PM

Any testimony will be televised, and it will be meme fodder for DECADES, I fully expect a 'Pop Up Video' style fact check with a lie counter in the corner. It would be EPIC and should be giving the GOP HIVES.

"Meme fodder" doesn't remove Trump from office. It has no political value.

I point out that Trump is accused of an impeachable offense that everyone finally agrees is one.

And he's done it again, in public, since then twice.

Trump is incapable of believing he done something wrong so he's going to do it until everyone agrees it wasn't wrong.

Trump is accused of an impeachable offense that everyone in the House finally agrees is one, yes. But he's still almost certainly going to skate, just as soon as the Senate gets their chance to vote on it.

In fact, as of yesterday, polling's showing that although more people are in favor of impeachment than against it, the "Yes, Impeach the bastard!" votes still haven't even crossed 50%. Support for impeachment is rising, but still lower than you might hope and a far cry away from "Everyone agrees".

His approval rating, meanwhile, has not budged an inch from its remarkably stable 38-42% range that it's been in since January 2017.

This is not the magic bullet you're looking for. As long as the Republicans hold majority in the Senate, there is no magic bullet. The best the Democrats can do here is to use the opportunity of an impeachment trial to drag Trump's dirty laundry out in front of the public. Make a public spectacle of it.

If Democrats pin their hopes on trying to actually convince Senate Republicans to vote against their own President, they will fail.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:27:12 PM

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MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#133: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:05:51 PM

This may just be me being a pessimist, but is there a chance this impeachment might backfire on us?

It will almost certainly fail in the Senate, and that would only strengthen Trump politically because then he could claim that he was proven innocent and that the Democrats are really just out to get him and don't care about the country.

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#134: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:09:41 PM

Yes there’s a chance, there’s was also a chance that not impeaching Trump would hurt Democrats (my autocorrect said democracy, which is also true but not what I meant).

Welcome to life, lots of things have a chance.

Edited by Silasw on Oct 3rd 2019 at 8:11:34 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#135: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:19:00 PM

It all depends on what comes out during the hearings and how the Dems present the case. Remember when the Impeachment process/hearings started for Nixon it wasn't popular and he had robust support in the Senate. Once more and more of his crimes were made public and the House was able to articulate why this was so beyond the pale that the public and the Senate eventually turned on him.

When Clinton was impeached the public was "He had an affair and got a blow job...so what?" and the GOP was like "BUT HE LIIIIIED ABOUT IT!!!" And the Public was like "Yeah...what married man WOULDN'T lie about that? He's not the first president to have an affair in office..." Hence why that massively backfired on the GOP they were seen as being petty jerks who didn't like the Clintons.

The GOP is trying to portray this as 'Clinton 2.0' and the Dems as petty, but people won't see trying to threaten/blackmail/extort a foreign power to dig up dirt on a possible political rival on the same level as lying about a blow job. My guess is as more and more dirt comes out we'll see the public anger grow and if we are REALLY lucky the Senate MIGHT Impeach but either way it won't do the GOP in general (and Trump in particular) any favors in an election year.

Every person whose running against a GOP Incumbent will most likely have to fight off accusations of aiding and abetting the Criminal in the Oval Office. Any Senate Republican is going to need to take a hard look at their re-election chances (now and in 2022) before casting that impeachment vote.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#136: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:39:39 PM

This may just be me being a pessimist, but is there a chance this impeachment might backfire on us?

It will almost certainly fail in the Senate, and that would only strengthen Trump politically because then he could claim that he was proven innocent and that the Democrats are really just out to get him and don't care about the country.

I'll just leave this here.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#137: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:41:56 PM

Whether the public wants it or not is irrelevant, though.

The GOP doesn't care. They will refuse to convict him anyway. So, where does that leave us?

Edited by MrHellboy on Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:48:19 AM

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#138: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:45:50 PM

Actually, whether the public wants it or not is the major point. If the Democrats manage to convince the majority of the public that yes, these are impeachable offenses and Trump really should be kicked out of office, but the Senate doesn't do it, then that highlights the fact that the GOP are party-before-country and will stand by Trump no matter what he does, which will definitely hurt them with voters outside of the rabid core base.

It might even be possible, though it's a long shot, that if the public outrage grows enough, that the Senate will vote to convict, if only to save their own hides and political careers.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#139: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:48:44 PM

Keep in mind the reason Pelosi was holding back on impeachment for so long was the concern that Trump and his goons would spin it and muddy the waters to make him look like a victim, possibly endangering out 2020 chances. Better to run a strong and clean campaign, keep an eye out for foreign interference, and win the old fashion way.

Except Trump made that impossible. He was - is at this moment trying to get foreign nations to interfere in 2020. This isn't a fair election if the other side is actively breaking the law to stack the deck against you. Time will tell if what we're doing now will help us in the long run, but not doing anything definitely would have hurt us.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#140: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:51:36 PM

If support gets high enough it leaves us with a strong democrat controlled senate after 2020.

If Democrats win every Nat 20 Senate seat in 2020 they might be able to legislate even while keeping the filibuster.

Now that requires support to get insanely high, but if you’re going to consider every possibility you should consider the good longshots as well.

Oh and for people wanting numbers on impeachment support, 538 are doing a polling average of impeachment support.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#141: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:52:54 PM

It just feels like, with him taking ownership of what happened on live TV like that, it pretty much took the wind out of the impeachment proceedings' sails.

Nothing left to really investigate now, since he just flat-out admitted to it. And we all know the GOP will literally let him get away with murder. So what's even the point anymore?

EDIT: Yes yes, it's the right thing to do obvs. But what will it accomplish?

Edited by MrHellboy on Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:55:20 AM

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#142: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:55:47 PM

Now I'm confused. Are you saying we should let him extort foreign nations to interfere in 2020?

ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#143: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:56:27 PM

Its also a very clean cut and dry accusation, he made the call, he said those things and then willingly released the memo summarizing the call that tied it up in neat bow.

In the Muller Report there was always at least 1-2 people between Trump and the act, and could be spun that HE didn't do anything wrong, those other people did, or those he order to do the illegal acts decided NOT to do them. So nothing clear cut that Joe Public could understand.

Most of the Public understands what extortion/blackmail is, and can easily understand the path of "Dig up dirt on these people for my election chances or I'll withhold the badly needed aid/money your country needs" and understand that a President just doesn't DO that for personal gain.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#144: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:57:23 PM

It will turn the public against him and the Republican Party by publicly making the case against him with huge media focus and making Republican lawmakers show that their complicit in his crimes.

Sorry, we’re you under the impression that the primary aim here was to remove Trump from office? It’s not and never has been.

[up][up] I think they may just be blindly feeling defeatist.

Edited by Silasw on Oct 3rd 2019 at 8:58:16 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#145: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:57:32 PM

@MrHellboy: Well, nothing. If everybody just rolls over like you seem to have done (since only the worst case scenario is, of course, at all possible)....

Look, that attitude is going to grow you either depression or a heart attack.

This is far from end game stuff, for reasons that have been discussed.

Chin up, me duck. The sky probably won't fall down.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 3rd 2019 at 10:04:17 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#146: Oct 3rd 2019 at 1:59:27 PM

Whether the public wants it or not is irrelevant, though.

The GOP doesn't care. They will refuse to convict him anyway. So, where does that leave us?

Excuse me what? You literally asked if there was a chance of impeachment backfiring on us, how exactly do you think it would backfire if the public doesn't matter?

This response doesn't make any sense considering your question, or this small thing in 2020 called, an election.

Impeachment has only existed for a relatively short period of time and we're already seeing fairly strong support, if those people who are unsure about impeachment decide it's justified then this could get very bad for the Republicans.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:00:46 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#147: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:03:05 PM

I'm sorry, everybody.

I actually do suffer from depression and mental health issues, and that does color my perception of things.

It just all seems rather hopeless to me right now.

But I don't mean to bring everybody else down. If you'd like me to bow out of this discussion, do tell me and I will.

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#148: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:08:48 PM

[up]Nope, you don't get to run away without processing through that little spiral a bit, mate.

Not on my watch, you don't. evil grin

OK — quick baseline check: it's the uncertainty of the process that's getting to you, yes? Specifically the Senate procedure?

As a group, we can probably help you break that down and run you through it a bit. smile

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#149: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:09:12 PM

I think more for your own mental health it would be a good idea, the news cycle for the past few years hasn’t been something that everyone is in a position to manage, it’s getting even worse and sometimes self-care means walking away from things. If possible it may be worth seeing any professionals you have access to to help with the impact that the news cycle is having on your mental health.

I like the discussions we have here, but they are well beyond the level that a person needs to be an informed citizen, this is all just extra toppings for politics nerds who enjoy it.

[up] Come on, you’re enough of a mental health professional to know better than to try and do treatment via a forum, there’s a reason I’m not trying to do anything beyond giving some quick broad advise.

Edited by Silasw on Oct 3rd 2019 at 9:13:16 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#150: Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:14:11 PM

When Clinton was impeached the public was "He had an affair and got a blow job...so what?" and the GOP was like "BUT HE LIIIIIED ABOUT IT!!!" And the Public was like "Yeah...what married man WOULDN'T lie about that? He's not the first president to have an affair in office..." Hence why that massively backfired on the GOP they were seen as being petty jerks who didn't like the Clintons.

I wouldn't say it backfired. Especially since the Republicans took the Presidency in the next election.

If you ask the lay person what they know about Bill Clinton, "Horny pervert perved up the White House with his horniness" will be the first thing that comes to mind. Even though he was ultimately not removed from office, Bill Clinton became immortalized as the Horny Pervert President.

To this day, he still pops up in animated sitcoms from time to time as a LOL Horny Pervert punchline. Being a comically exaggerated sex fiend is his public legacy.

That's the thing about impeachments. People ignore 90% of whatever you do in office as President, but they straighten the f*ck up and eagerly pay attention to impeachments. It's a huge political event that cannot be ignored, and it overshadows the entire rest of the Presidency.

If this inquiry moves to an actual impeachment trial, it will be the biggest, loudest, most publicized event in the United States since 9/11. Whether or not he actually leaves office, the things Trump is impeached for will become his public legacy. Just like Nixon and Clinton before him.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:17:35 AM

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