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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#101: Oct 9th 2019 at 2:10:45 AM

Joker is as defined by his relationship with Batman as Luthor is by his relationship with Superman. If they can make a good Joker movie without Batman, I think they can do a good Luthor movie without Superman. There are somethings you can explore about Luthor like his rise to power and his abusive father.

ThriceCharming Red Spade, Black Heart from Maryland Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Red Spade, Black Heart
#102: Oct 9th 2019 at 5:14:27 AM

Batman and Spider-Man exist in Joker and Venom, it's just that the movie happens not to focus on them. It's the idea of "This is a world where Lex Luthor and Lois Lane exist, but Superman is still a fiction" that sounds foolish.

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#103: Oct 9th 2019 at 5:58:54 AM

Spider-Man doesn't exist in Venom. He never comes up at any point in the film. Spidey will apparently be in the sequel, but the first movie just had Venom in a vacuum.

The difference is that Venom, despite being pigeonholed by adaptations, has a long and storied history as the antihero main character of his own comics.

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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#104: Oct 9th 2019 at 10:36:32 AM

Even if they exist, not focus on them make them no existent to all sound and purpose, I for one would like to see a villian movie like that, without parasiting the hero for it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#105: Oct 9th 2019 at 11:54:34 AM

Would anyone seriously watch a Luthor movie that was just about an angry, bald white guy and his troubled childhood?

I mean - we already have beef with a movie about an angry, disgruntled white guy and his troubled adulthood. :D

Lex is a wholly different cocktail of human vices that simply wouldn't cater to as wide of an audience as Joker did.

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TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#106: Oct 9th 2019 at 12:56:16 PM

Would anyone seriously watch a Luthor movie that was just about an angry, bald white guy and his troubled childhood?

I mean - we already have beef with a movie about an angry, disgruntled white guy and his troubled adulthood. :D

Lex is a wholly different cocktail of human vices that simply wouldn't cater to as wide of an audience as Joker did.

Maybe? People liked The Wolf of Wall Street. That movie made $392m on a $100m budget and scored a 72% on the Tomatometer. Not exactly Marvel Cinematic Universe money but it's still a tidy profit.

It's really going to depend on what the story and conflict are.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 9th 2019 at 1:59:08 PM

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#107: Oct 9th 2019 at 1:13:14 PM

If not a Luthor movie, I'd be interested in a film about Ares, Circe, Cheshire or the Flash Rogues.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#108: Oct 9th 2019 at 2:28:44 PM

A film about Lex certainly doesn't have the built-in appeal of something like a solo Joker film. A good script and solid performances could go a long way but I dunno how much appeal it would have.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Oct 9th 2019 at 5:31:28 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#109: Oct 9th 2019 at 5:09:22 PM

Say what will you will about Venom (2018) and Joker (2019), but at least they have an interesting gimmick to them that could be a unique way to approach a superhero (or villain in these cases) movie. Venom is an alien symbiote that latches onto a host and they become a lethal protector. Joker is a clown who incites violence and mayhem for his own amusement.

But a Luthor without a Superman is just a rich asshole who's smarter than everybody else. Luthor's key appeal is that he's an ordinary man who's able to be a credible threat to the most powerful heroes in the DC Universe just by using his intelligence. Without superheroes to oppose him, what's his main hook? I just feel like this a movie where it could easily be rewritten to be its own property and no one would notice.

But hey, I poo-pooed Venom and Joker before their trailers came out too. So obviously that means this film will gross over a billion dollars, and be the one film that year where fans will call out for the critics for giving it mixed reviews. Because I'm an anti-Nostradamus.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Oct 9th 2019 at 8:10:29 AM

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#110: Oct 9th 2019 at 5:31:26 PM

The thing is that Joker's origin story can be, and often has been, largely divorced from Batman. Venom had an uphill battle to diverge from Spider-Man, but has had decades of comics developing him as a solo Anti-Hero to work with. Lex Luthor, while there might be something to go by with a Villain Protagonist approach, is still rooted in his hatred of Superman and fighting to undermine superheroes in general.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#111: Oct 9th 2019 at 6:50:30 PM

Well it depend, most people remenber luthor as super evil CEO, the criminal mastermind or as president, but I will said Evil mad scienst luthor can be entretaing.

Also I will said venom have the fact he is a edgy version of the thing of carpenter so is easy to work with story with that.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: Aug, 2015
The Head of the Hydra
#112: Oct 9th 2019 at 6:55:55 PM

But Luthor is practically defined by his relationship with superhumans.

His constant character is despite being the most powerful man in the world he still feels inferior towards superhumans because he feels like a measly human compared to them. Even when he became a superhero a big point is how tries to surpass other heroes & generally fails because of his inner nature.

Without Batman Joker would still seek to show how society is a joke but Luthor needs a superpowered antagonist to bring about his double-sided nature. Luthor represents the inferiority of man in the face of Godlike power so he needs a God.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 9th 2019 at 6:57:52 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#113: Oct 9th 2019 at 7:02:51 PM

Yeah, a Luthor movie where he becomes president without Superman is basically just House of Cards (US). Which also starred a Luthor now that I think about it.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Oct 9th 2019 at 10:03:04 AM

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#114: Oct 12th 2019 at 12:29:50 PM

-hears the Joker's plan in it's entirety-

"Ok, but why tho?"

Joker's ramblings about being a dog chasing cars are funny in hindsight. Just imagine him sitting down with a beer trying to put together the whole plan, work out the timing, and the thousand other possibilities of a bank heist/terrorist plot going wrong.

Edited by Soble on Oct 12th 2019 at 12:36:37 PM

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KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#115: Oct 12th 2019 at 4:48:23 PM

Going to agree, a film of Luthor without superheroes just come off as...just a film.about a rich man, the only way that this can work IMO is if it involves Luthor going full Mad Scientist with alien stuff but without a Superman to stop him.

Watch me destroying my country
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#116: Oct 13th 2019 at 12:46:26 AM

[up][up]Granted part of it is that the joker lie and he lies A LOT, he see himself as guy follwing impulse rather than having a objective.

[up]Well it said superman is a fragment of is imagination so you can imagine something of "if god dosent exist we will make it" so Luthor create is own enemy for not having someone to fight.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
ThriceCharming Red Spade, Black Heart from Maryland Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Red Spade, Black Heart
#117: Oct 13th 2019 at 10:44:07 AM

Do movie audiences even like Lex Luthor that much? "When is Superman going to fight another supervillain?" used to be a common complaint. If they didn't turn out for Superman Returns in 2006, I doubt they'll turn out for "Here's Lex Luthor without his most meaningful relationship."

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#119: Oct 14th 2019 at 12:59:31 PM

There hasn't really been a well received version of Luthor in a long while. Even a lot of people who otherwise show reverence for the Donner movies often say Gene Hackman was not the definitive Luthor in the way Christopher Reeve is the definitive Superman.

Maybe we'll get there one day. But right now there's a fairly low bar.

Edited by comicwriter on Oct 14th 2019 at 1:01:00 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#120: Oct 14th 2019 at 1:16:48 PM

Jon Cryer made a great Luthor in Supergirl.

TargetmasterJoe Since: May, 2013
#121: Oct 14th 2019 at 1:47:45 PM

[up] Right? Hard to believe that was Lenny and Alan Harper.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Oct 14th 2019 at 4:48:01 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#122: Oct 14th 2019 at 1:51:55 PM

[up][up][up]Originally, Zack Snyder (or people in his crew) were considering getting Bryan Cranston to play Luthor in Batman vs Superman. I don't think Cranston would have had good material to work with, so maybe it doesn't really matter that they didn't go with him in the end, but he'd be a pretty good Luthor in a stronger script I think.

But yeah I agree that Gene Hackman wasn't really a great Luthor. Although I'm not sure to what extent that's Hackman's fault, it was a pretty campy script where Lex had a silly real estate scheme so it's not like he was working with A grade material either.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Oct 14th 2019 at 4:52:56 AM

Andrei_Bondoc Since: Jan, 2019
#123: Oct 14th 2019 at 1:53:16 PM

[up][up][up]Not to mention Jon Cryer was earlier Felix Faust on Justice League Action.

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#124: Oct 14th 2019 at 1:53:17 PM

[up] Any source on that? Because I've heard Cranston's name before in regard to Lex and it was all just wishful thinking.

Andrei_Bondoc Since: Jan, 2019
#125: Oct 14th 2019 at 1:54:42 PM

[up]Here is the source you asked.

Edited by Andrei_Bondoc on Oct 14th 2019 at 11:56:24 AM

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