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Looks good from a first glance. I'll go through it more thoroughly and note my thoughts down tomorrow.
I've edited the main foil page to cut the shoehorned subtropes from the standalone folder, and commented out a couple that are ambiguous and need rewrites or reworkings to fit on the page. After the other subsections are pruned, we can go through and add explanations to the ones that fit on how they can be used as foils.
I've also noted that interaction between the characters is important, and put Contrasting Sequel Main Character and Contrasting Sequel Antagonist in the description to make it clear that they don't count as foils.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Sep 2nd 2019 at 11:28:58 AM
I've managd to trim down most of V3's cross-game examples down to those who interact in UTDP. However, I'm not sure if they serve as foils to each other. I've got a link to the wiki, which has transcripts of their conversations in UTDP, here.
Edited by GoldenCityBird on Sep 3rd 2019 at 10:11:36 AM
I think Foil.The Big Bang Theory should be looked at. Multiple examples seem like shoehorning singular or meaningless traits like ethnicity or using several characters in a single comparison.
As for V3, I'd remove Kokichi and Himiko as well as Ryoma and Korekiyo. The characters don't interact closely enough.
Edited by Piterpicher on Sep 3rd 2019 at 4:59:19 PM
Yup, just taking a quick look at the page, there are some entries that are fairly meaningless character trivia "x likes Star Wars and y doesn't," which is of course not foil-worthy and should be cut. The entries about contrasting personality traits can stay, but the page needs a major rewrite to mention the interactions and how they highlight these traits.
x2 I'll take a look at the wiki later and give my opinion on if it counts.
x3 Good analysis again. Going through the tropes to highlight the ones that seem shoehorned and can be cut and the ones that might work, but just need clarification on the page:
Edited by ILikeRobots on Sep 3rd 2019 at 8:30:42 AM
I've removed Ryoma and Korekiyo. I've only commented out Kokichi and Himiko, as they both survive for quite a while, but they can be removed.
I've removed examples on TBBT which were about outlier characters in groups or meaningless non-personality traits. I don't think I'm up to rewriting current examples yet, though.
Edited by Piterpicher on Sep 3rd 2019 at 5:51:24 PM
Hey, you can repost any misuses of Foil you find in this TLP thread, if you think it'll help you clean up easier. The whole point is to help with the cleanup.
I've gone through the pairs of common foils on the main page and deleted those that didn't fit from before. I've hidden those that are more ambiguous and could possibly be rewritten to fit based on the analysis.
Finished giving a bit more context to how the subtropes fit, partly with stuff I wrote and partly with stuff ~War Jay 77 wrote. Gonna make another pass through later on to finish it up, then tackle the last two sections of the common foils folder.
Should we have a broader "Contrasting Character Duo" trope?
That would be a useful place for the opposite duo tropes that don't rely on personality and interaction to go so they aren't mistaken for foil, now that I think about it. Maybe those could be migrated over there.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Sep 8th 2019 at 1:18:02 AM
Per this, I have a question. If the characters don't interact but in-universe characters bring up the contrast, can they count as a Foil as it shows it's intentional? And/or would it only apply if they exist in the same work, time, and/or setting such they could hypothetically interact such? Or is that Foil as a Discussed Trope?
What about juxtaposition? When the don't necessarily interact but the editing portrays them in a way to show contrast. Would that be enough to prove it intentional enough to count as this trope?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jul 28th 2020 at 12:32:54 PM
I got a reply from the maker of the Foil Cleanup thread saying it should be interacting only and other discussing the contrast is a Discussed Trope. Juxtaposition like I described sounds like a separate trope.
I'll add this to Square Peg, Round Trope on the 4th per Three-Day Rule unless I hear any objections.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Aug 1st 2020 at 6:35:04 AM
Contrasting Sequel Main Character and Contrasting Sequel Antagonist.
Based on the discussion in Trope Talk, it sounds more like both interaction-based contrast and juxtaposition-based contrast would be subtropes to the broader Foil supertrope.
Edited by Twiddler on Aug 1st 2020 at 6:41:35 AM
How about this?
Or are we talking about splitting Foil into separate interaction and juxtaposition based tropes?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Aug 1st 2020 at 10:09:03 AM
What happens if we encounter examples we're not sure apply. Do we raise them here or leave them in place until the exact wording of the trope has been finalised?
From a character page for Warframe, in Octavia's folder:
I'm very skeptical of any entries between different Warframes. For context, they're essentially half-organic robotic bodies that your player character, an Operator, can possess. They almost never have any kind of interaction with each other in the game's story; if a Warframe gets any kind of story relevance, it's a quest that is entirely devoted to that one Warframe, and none of the quests establish any kind of dichotomy between multiple Warframes.
But to delve further into this entry, Octavia is The Bard and Titania is a pixie. Their themes have nothing to do with each other. The part about opposed syndicates is technically true, but it's not something that ever gets much focus, to the point where you can still get Octavia's quest from Cephalon Suda even if she hates your guts and just sent a bunch of robots to kill you in the previous mission. And the actual entries are very weak comparisons. Would anyone object if I cut this?
Edited by Serac on Sep 9th 2020 at 11:44:55 AM
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How well does it match the trope?