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Unclear Description: Everythings Better With Princesses

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Adept from Online Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Aug 22nd 2019 at 9:25:16 PM

So this began with a discussion in the Laconic Description Improvement, and ended up in confusion as to what this trope is actually about.

There seems to be two conflicting ideas written on the description: one is that the princess's royal lineage and upbringing is a plot relevant aspect of the character, the other is that the princess's title is completely irrelevant, but it's just tacked-on to the character to add her "specialness".

In practice, it seems to be used as "Princesses exist".

Wick check

  1. Adaptational Wealth — Pothole on the word princess. Context of the sentence seems to be describing Rags to Royalty.
  2. Broken Base — Pothole on a character's name.
  3. Consequence Combo — Pothole on the word princess.
  4. Cute Witch — Pothole on the word princess, followed up by Magical Girl Queenliness Test.
  5. Engagement Challenge — Pothole on the word princess (sort of; it's linked in a dialogue given by a hypothetical king referring to his daughter).
  6. Free-Love Future — Pothole on the word princess
  7. Hufflepuff House — Princesses as an irrelevant title. Main characters are identified as princesses, but their kingdoms are Doomed Hometown, and are mostly irrelevant to the plot.
  8. Inventional Wisdom — Pothole on the word princess. It's apparently a setting on a potion-making device.
  9. Law of Chromatic Superiority — Pothole on the word princess.
  10. Magikarp Power — Pothole on the word princess.
  11. No Badass to His Valet — Pothole on a character's name.
  12. Playing with Fire — Pothole on a character's name.
  13. Raised by Dudes — Pothole on a character's name.
  14. Spy Fiction — No context.
  15. The Woman Wearing the Queenly Mask — Pothole on the word princess.
  16. Two Girls to a Team — Pothole on the word princess.
  17. Winter Royal Lady — Pothole on the word princess.
  18. ActionGirl.Anime And Manga — Pothole on a character's name.
  19. AdaptationalBadass.Live Action Films — Pothole on a character's name. Context says nothing about her being a princess, and more about her being a Damsel in Distress and Proud Warrior Race Girl.
  20. Animation.Sweets Fairy — No context.
  21. Anime.Arabian Nights Adventures Of Sinbad — A princess exist.
  22. Anime.El Hazard The Magnificent World — No context.
  23. Anime.Mahou No Mako Chan — A princess exist.
  24. Anime.The Wings Of Rean — A princess exist.
  25. Awesome.Video Game Levels G To M — Pothole on a character's name.
  26. BetterThanItSounds.Anime And Manga D To G — Pothole on the word princess.
  27. CallingYourAttacks.Video Games — Pothole on a character's name.
  28. Characters.Artemis Academy And Apollo Academy — Contextless weblink.
  29. Characters.Homestuck Trolls Three — Character is a princess and heir to the throne.
  30. Characters.Lunar Chronicles — Character is a (long-lost) princess and heir to the throne.
  31. Characters.Nine Eleven Ten — Character is (dubiously) a princess.
  32. Characters.The LEGO Movie — Character is a princess.
  33. Characters.The Witch And The Hundred Knight — No context.
  34. Characters.UFO Robo Grendizer — Character is a princess and likes to flaunt her status.
  35. Characters.Wild Arms 1 — Character is a princess.
  36. Characters.Ys Memories Of Celceta — Pothole on a character's name.
  37. ComicBook.Bunty — Main character is a princess.
  38. Mandrake the Magician — Hero's Love Interest is a princess.
  39. Creator.Matthew Reilly — A princess exist.
  40. Fanfic.Soldiers Of Love — A character who isn't a princess in canon is written as one in the fic.
  41. Fanfic.Celestial Warrior Moon — A character is a princess.
  42. Fanfic.Skyhold Academy Yearbook — Two of the central characters are princesses.
  43. Film.Dragonslayer — Character is good, but not special.
  44. Film.The Great Yokai War — A princess exist.
  45. Franchise.Touhou — Pothole on the word princess.
  46. Literature.Elantris — Work features a prince and a princess who are Royals Who Actually Do Something.
  47. Literature.The Life And Adventures Of Santa Claus — Adaptational princess.
  48. Literature.Why Polly — A princess exist.
  49. Music.Nami TamakiIs called "princess" by fans.
  50. Pantheon.Power Levels And Appearance — Pothole on the word princess.
  51. PlayingWith.Naked In Mink — Pothole on the word princess.
  52. Roleplay.Shifting Worlds Anathemus Mythos — A princess exist.
  53. Series.Are You Afraid Of The Dark — Characters become a princess in a game.
  54. Series.Sabrina The Teenage Witch — Pothole on the word princess.
  55. SugarWiki.Eversion — No context
  56. TabletopGame.Unstable Unicorns — A princess exist.
  57. Theatre.Disney On Ice — Princesses exist.
  58. Toys.Ever After High — Princess status used as a leverage.
  59. VideoGame.Abadox — Pothole on the word princess.
  60. VideoGame.Chrono Trigger — A character is revealed to be a princess.
  61. VideoGame.Endless Frontier — Princesses exist.
  62. VideoGame.Karateka — Superfluous princess status.
  63. VideoGame.Motor Toon Grand Prix — A princess exist.
  64. VideoGame.Rayman Legends — Princesses exist.
  65. VideoGame.The Magic Of Scheherazade — Princesses exist.
  66. VideoGame.Yggdra Union — Princesses are good. The game is an aversion to the trope because Princess character is apparently a Villain Protagonist
  67. WMG.Glitter Force — Pothole on the word princess.
  68. WebComic.Junior Squad — Princesses exist.
  69. Webcomic.Blind Springs — No context.
  70. Webcomic.Pacificators — A princess exist.
  71. Webcomic.The Princess — A princess exist.
  72. WesternAnimation.Barbie And The Secret Door — Princesses are good.
  73. WesternAnimation.Fire And Ice — A princess exist.
  74. WesternAnimation.Princess Natasha — A princess exist.
  75. WesternAnimation.Sym Bionic Titan — A princess exist.
  76. WesternAnimation.Unikitty — No context.

As you can see, the trope is mostly used as a pothole magnet. And many of the ones that give "context" to the example doesn't actually touch on the character's royal status and makes irrelevant tangents about their other traits instead.

There are some examples that at least attempt to give some sort of definition to the trope, but they're really few and far in between, and most of them are covered by other tropes anyway.

  • A princess is expected to be good, gentle and kindhearted. Princess characters who deviate from this expected personality trait (e.g. being Hot-Blooded, evil, or even anti heroic) are listed as subversions. Princess Classic covers this.
  • A character who starts out as normal is suddenly revealed to be a princess, and this is treated as an important plot point. This is basically Really Royalty Reveal.

I don't really see anything worth salvaging from this "trope" so the only proposition I can think of (outside of outright cutting it) is to turn it into a redirect to Royalty and Nobility Tropes, since this is basically an index for Princesses tropes.

Edited by Adept on Aug 24th 2019 at 8:33:43 AM

SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Aug 23rd 2019 at 12:49:36 AM

Opening and fixed the page link.

GastonRabbit King of Blue Lions from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
King of Blue Lions
Aug 23rd 2019 at 1:14:27 AM

Leaning toward cutting, redirecting, or turning into a disambiguation page, partially because it's yet another problematic "Everything's better with..." trope, and partially because it's too broad, the latter being what resulted in Badass Princessnote  getting turned into a disambiguation page. Also regarding the latter, perhaps any good examples could be moved to more specific tropes, including the ones listed on Badass Princess.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 23rd 2019 at 3:19:07 AM

"I am Ferdinand von Aegir." —Ferdinand von Aegir
WarJay77 Quite Impossible to Describe... from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Quite Impossible to Describe...
Aug 23rd 2019 at 1:20:59 AM

[up] I agree.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
Berrenta Nice Hat from Texas Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Brainulator9 Regular garden-variety troper. from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Aug 23rd 2019 at 1:22:57 PM

The Everything's Better With X family of tropes really mean "gratuitous X". And Everything's Better with Princesses is a Tropes in Aggregate trope about the overabundance of princesses in media aimed at children. This trope is about like why Adventure Time has a princess for practically everything, and why Disney Princess shoehorns a bunch of characters that originally weren't princesses into princess role. This trope is also the motivation for things like Princesses Rule.

There are a couple of ways this plays out:

  • Princess Protagonist: The protagonist of a story, usually one aimed at little girls, is a princess.
  • Ascended Princess: Happy ending involves non-noble main character becoming a princess. For example in the Land of Oz series Dorothy, an ordinary American girl, is made a princess after she befriends a real princess.
  • Gratuitous Princesses: A majority of characters, or far more than is realistic, are princesses (i.e. the Adventure Time example)

Would splitting these tropes out help at all?

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere
Planeswalker
Aug 23rd 2019 at 2:54:53 PM

I think we'd still need a trope about Princesses equalling good while Queens tend to equal evil, because that contrast's part of the trope too if I'm not mistaken.

Oissu!
Aug 23rd 2019 at 4:28:46 PM

Definitely like naturalironist's suggestions, and PhiSat makes a good point. Off the top of my head, in My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic the creators explicitly said that Celestia is a princess rather than a queen because they were worried that kids saw queens as evil. Can't think of a decent name, though.

Oh, and Princesses Rule should probably be considered too. Don't think it's directly related, but it's in there.

Brainulator9 Regular garden-variety troper. from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Regular garden-variety troper.
Aug 23rd 2019 at 6:25:34 PM

I could see "Good Princesses, Bad Queens" as a subtrope of whatever there is for age-morality correlation.

You don't mean no-nothing at all to me...
WarJay77 Quite Impossible to Describe... from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Quite Impossible to Describe...
Aug 23rd 2019 at 6:26:26 PM

[up] Same.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere
Planeswalker
Aug 23rd 2019 at 10:48:28 PM

God Save Us from the Queen! is about evil queens in general, yes. But it has nothing to do with fiction's tendency to also portray good characters as princesses while evil characters tend to be queens. A new trope about (princess = good) + (queen = bad) would be a subtrope of God Save Us from the Queen!, most likely.

And before you say that's too specific to trope I'll point out that it's everywhere.

Edited by PhiSat on Aug 23rd 2019 at 11:49:00 AM

Oissu!
GastonRabbit King of Blue Lions from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
King of Blue Lions
Aug 24th 2019 at 1:24:33 AM

Splitting sounds good. Those tropes could go on the disambiguation page I suggested. Also, I agree that a trope that combines good princesses and evil queens could be a subtrope of God Save Us from the Queen! (it wouldn't necessarily also be a subtrope of Princesses Rule, especially if both the princess and the queen are from the same country's royal family).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 24th 2019 at 8:07:37 AM

"I am Ferdinand von Aegir." —Ferdinand von Aegir
Adept from Online Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Aug 24th 2019 at 8:19:42 AM

I can get behind that idea. Turn Everything's Better with Princesses into a disambig page. I'm also good with the new tropes suggested by naturalironist @7.

On a related note, do the following subtropes (as listed from the current trope page) get to be listed in the new disambig page?

Edited by Adept on Aug 24th 2019 at 8:35:29 AM

naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Aug 24th 2019 at 11:50:53 AM

[up]We do have Princess Tropes for general tropes about princesses. So I'm not sure that all of those belong, just ones about princesses being shoehorned in in someway. I think Princess Phase, Princesses Rule, and maybe The Chief's Daughter (who's usually given a princess role) fit, not sure about the rest.

I like Good Princess Evil Queen as a new trope idea as well.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
GastonRabbit King of Blue Lions from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
King of Blue Lions
Aug 24th 2019 at 1:46:03 PM

I agree with limiting the disambiguation page to gratuitous use of princesses in the plot, due to the existence of the Princess Tropes index.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 25th 2019 at 7:44:59 AM

"I am Ferdinand von Aegir." —Ferdinand von Aegir
GastonRabbit King of Blue Lions from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
King of Blue Lions
Sep 3rd 2019 at 10:14:32 AM

Made a crowner since we've gone a while without much activity.

"I am Ferdinand von Aegir." —Ferdinand von Aegir
Sep 3rd 2019 at 1:41:47 PM

That... doesn't feel like enough options. Where does naturalironist's proposal fit?

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Sep 3rd 2019 at 8:00:16 PM

Yes, but it is a variant where the tropes do not yet exist. The page cannot disambiguate to a trope that hasn't been made, and the proposal would preserve those examples.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Sep 3rd 2019 at 8:32:24 PM

[up] - So, I guess the option would be "Make the new tropes then disambig into them."

Help with possible disambig and redirect issues!
GastonRabbit King of Blue Lions from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
King of Blue Lions
Sep 3rd 2019 at 8:45:55 PM

Option added. I linked to two of naturalironist's posts in the option, since I added Good Princess Evil Queen in addition to the ones in the post Discar linked to.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 3rd 2019 at 11:01:48 AM

"I am Ferdinand von Aegir." —Ferdinand von Aegir
Berrenta MOD Nice Hat from Texas Relationship Status: Can't buy me love

Page Action: Everythings Better With Princesses
3rd Sep '19 10:13:31 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
What should be done with Everythings Better With Princesses? Option 2 is not mutually exclusive with option 1 or 3, but options 1 and 3 are mutually exclusive with each other.

Total posts: 31
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How well does it match the trope?

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