The hyoid can be broken with around 30 pounds of force. Strangulation can occur with around 20. Neither of those require strength, just body weight.
If the Russians wanted to get rid of someone they wouldn’t have even bothered trying to hide it like this. They’re more than happy to poison and shoot people in broad daylight.
Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 16th 2019 at 7:16:48 AM
They should have sent a poet.Catch is that it wasn't just his hyoid he busted. The coroner's report specifically says that he broke multiple bones in his neck by doing this, not just one fragile one.
As for 'accidental' deaths in Russian prisons, I refer you to Sergei Magnitsky.
Edited by Iaculus on Aug 17th 2019 at 8:42:48 AM
What's precedent ever done for us?A suicide in a highly physically improbable manner, though (christ, CNN's main source on 'this makes total sense, honest' is Sanjay friggin' Gupta
), when the victim is literally part of a multi-generational international criminal conspiracy involving several of the most dangerous people in the world in one of the most institutionally corrupt cities in the world, and when allowing it to happen required at least three points of major institutional failure (suicide watch ended early, no cellmate, sleepy, inexperienced guards).
The evidence points to suicide if you trust the institutions providing the evidence, and Epstein's very existence and his position in American history gives us remarkably little reason to do so.
What's precedent ever done for us?I mean, he was sharing a cell with a weight-lifting former NYPD officer with mob connections who left the cell hours before his reported death (on a day when we know the guards weren't paying attention) and who Epstein claimed attacked him in his previous suicide attempt. That's kind of suspicious, no?
Edited by Iaculus on Aug 17th 2019 at 9:22:20 AM
What's precedent ever done for us?Oh if only it was just Trump spreading this bullshit.
Seriously, why is it so hard to believe that a man who was part of the demographic most likely to commit suicide among inmates (recently incarcerated prisoners awaiting trial) who was not closely monitored in an infamously unpleasant facility, a man who was known to have had trouble adjusting to his life as an inmate, offed himself?
Edited by M84 on Aug 17th 2019 at 5:46:06 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Because people need to feel like somebody is in control - like there was some purpose to all that.
"High profile prisoners kills himself because somebody slept on the job" is the kind of random event people often have a hard time dealing with.
That's the underlying reason with all conspiracy theories, especially the ones about world-spanning conspiracies - because the idea that nobody's actually steering this thing is utterly terrifying to some people.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Aug 17th 2019 at 2:50:37 PM
We learn from history that we do not learn from historyIndeed, human cognitive flaws mean that even if it is a 100% "natural" suicide there is still going to be persistent conspiracy theories.
It's inevitable.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 17th 2019 at 5:58:27 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangHe was a billionaire who died in prison,the chances of someone as rich as him ending up in prison seem so small as to be impossible,thus they assume they're being fed a narrative of lies and look for anything that might confirm it
For example,one such conspiracy theory they would readily believe is that the guy died in prison was not in fact Jeffrey Epstein but a body double,since his billionaire connections meant he could well afford to bribe someone into taking his place
have a listen and have a link to my discord serverHere is the thing about most conspiracy theories, they depend on us being doubtful of organizations that most people trust. However, most of the people and organizations involved here we don't trust. Billionaires? I'm probably one of the most pro-billionaire people on this forum, and I still don't trust them farther then I can throw them. A pedophile, a demographic that no one likes an trusts. Clintons, who many people do not like and thinks they are corrupt. Trump, who no one likes and everyone knows is corrupt. The police who many people don't trust. I don't think there is anyone involved who the public really trusts.
So when irregularities build up, as they have, we are not inclined to believe them. How do you tell when someone's lying? When reality doesn't match with what they are telling you. They say that it looks like a suicide, but more bones then just the Hyoid are broken. They say that they want to get after the truth, but Ghislaine Maxwell isn't in custody. So on and so forth. I'm not saying that these things are unexplainable, but because we don't trust the people involved there is a higher bar that needs to be cleared.
For me personally, I think we are looking at a situation where it seems Jack Ruby killed Epstein.
Edited by Soban on Aug 17th 2019 at 9:28:39 AM
It has not been demonstrated that an abnormal number of bones have been broken. And just because Ghislaine Maxwell is questionable and should be investigated does not mean that the police have probable cause to bring her in.
Are these things worth investigating? Yes, absolutely. But this is also compatible with a general public who is simply unqualified to determine the plausibility of these things (and I am counting myself amongst them).
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangThere are so many question surrounding Epstein and his interconnectedness to celebrity, crime and politics that even getting the chance to top himself is suspicious.
Not for a minute have I speculated on somebody walking into his cell with murder by strangulation on their minds. But, that he was allowed the elbow room to continue to both sleeze and kill himself raises very disturbing implications.
Particularly with the amounts of power, money and influence his contacts have.
What, don't commit suicide? It's actually very common in Epstein's clique. Just look through the list of interestingly deceased he's a part of.
That's why questions.
It's not a big conspiracy of a Hydra-like entity. But, that bunch of wheelers and dealers tend to die in questionable circumstances quite a bit more than the average. And, not just in inheritance disputes (which with that amount of money, is an occupational hazard in itself).
He was part of the demographic that is very likely to commit suicide — inmates awaiting trial.
He was noted to have trouble adjusting to life as an inmate, especially in a place as miserable as MCC.
He was put on suicide watch.
That this was actually suicide? That's entirely plausible. And the evidence we've gotten so far supports that.
All there is to support the idea that this was foul play is suspicions. Circumstances. The idea that someone like Epstein couldn't have died without someone pulling the strings.
Disgusted, but not surprisedOK — let's put it another way. An alcoholic dying of alcoholism isn't necessarily murder, but some would term it suicide (if not always voluntary, thanks to the demon drink in the driving seat).
But, an alcoholic left alone in a room with six crates of somewhat questionable vodka who then proceeds to convulse and die on the floor... and, questions should get asked about how those crates got there, what exactly was in those bottles, how the alcoholic got there, whether anybody knew they were alcoholic and why both vodka and victim of alcoholism were in that room for long enough for the "well, these things happen, mustn't dwell" to happen.
Edited by Euodiachloris on Aug 17th 2019 at 4:24:13 PM
It was his own lawyers who pushed to get him off suicide watch. Don't forget that. It's possible Epstein managed to con and manipulate them and others into thinking he wasn't at risk anymore.
It's more like an alcoholic convincing people he can totally be trusted to be in a room with six crates of vodka and not lose control.
Add that with two guards — one not even fully trained and the other having done five overtime shifts in a row — working way too late and dozing off...
Edited by M84 on Aug 17th 2019 at 11:17:23 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Another question: who else that Epstein knew might, I dunno, have the same law firm on retainer (or some controlling interest, derivative, associate or satellite thereof)?
Social links of all kinds was this guy's thing.
We won't get a full picture for years about this.
Edited by Euodiachloris on Aug 17th 2019 at 4:29:29 PM

Bones break easier with age, its possible I think