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This is a thread to discuss those Administrivia pages in need of a little updating- you know the ones. The ones that still cite rules we've long since changed, or the ones that don't properly cite our current standards. Some of them are even scattered in Main/!

So, this is the place to take those pages and fix them up with the help of the community.

For a list of current projects, see Outdated Administrivia Pages.

Note: This thread is not for asking mods to make one-off edits to Locked Pages, Administrivia-related or otherwise, such as requesting additions to an Example Sectionectomy index. Please use this thread for that.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 21st 2023 at 9:12:02 AM

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#3051: Dec 23rd 2024 at 9:57:13 PM

Should Know the Staff say anything about how mods and engineers can create crowners?

It already says mods and engineers can hook crowners, and with the current system, the button for hooking crowners also creates one. I guess I can change "hook, unhook and close crowners" to "create, hook, unhook and close crowners" since that's just one more word.

Edit: Done.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 23rd 2024 at 12:00:35 PM

I got a rock for Halloween.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#3052: Dec 23rd 2024 at 10:13:37 PM

One thing on Know The Staff that has always irked me is the idea that Engineers can "discard any TLP draft". This currently isn't a thing; it was intended to be, but we were never actually given that ability and I doubt it'll happen until the TLP updates are made. So can we remove that?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#3053: Dec 23rd 2024 at 10:22:09 PM

If that's not implemented yet, the article should reflect that; edited.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
FSharp Resisting a rest Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: I wanna know what love is
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#3055: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:46:43 AM

[up]What are you proposing we do?

I got a rock for Halloween.
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3056: Dec 25th 2024 at 1:52:12 AM

I'd assume rewriting "How do I get a representative sample of wicks?" to account that there being a button, but I'm not good with brainstorming the phrasing atm.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
FSharp Resisting a rest Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: I wanna know what love is
#3057: Dec 25th 2024 at 4:47:19 PM

Here's a rewrite. I don't think it's necessary to mention the other ways of checking wicks anymore.

How do I get a representative sample of wicks?

Go to the corresponding Related page and press the Wick Check button, which is next to the two search bars. If there are fewer than 50 wicks, the Wick Check button won't appear because you need to check them all.

Once you press the Wick Check button, a list of random wicks will appear. The number of wicks in the list will be either the square root of the total number of wicks or 50, whichever is larger. You can check a smaller number of wicks if you feel you're not up to the task, but unless your results are very conclusive, they will likely be challenged on the basis of your sample not being large enough to be representative.

You need to keep this page open while you check the wicks, because leaving the page and returning to it will generate a different list of wicks. If you need to close the page, copy the list of wicks and paste it somewhere else, then use that list for the rest of your wick check.

Edited by FSharp on Dec 25th 2024 at 7:53:06 AM

I don't just Wiki Talk the talk. I Wiki Walk the walk.
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#3059: Dec 26th 2024 at 5:47:11 AM

I think it looks fine as well.

In the past I've stated that I'd swap in sandboxes for rewrites in three days if nobody objected (though I wasn't the first to do that), and while this is a forum post and not a sandbox (though the fact that mods can edit other users' posts means the source code is still easily accessible to mods), I suppose it could be swapped in on Saturday (three days from when it was posted, since it was posted yesterday) if nobody objects.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 26th 2024 at 7:50:00 AM

I got a rock for Halloween.
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3060: Dec 26th 2024 at 5:56:20 AM

Sounds good, but is "You can check a smaller number of wicks if you feel you're not up to the task" true? Admittedly it's in How to Do a Wick Check as well, but as I recall if the wick check is incomplete is just not accepted in the first place. You can let other tropers finish the job though.

Also while How to Do a Wick Check doesn't mention it, despite the name, picking wicks isn't the point, a wick check should have snippets of pages that contain the wicks for usage analysis, normally the whole examples.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#3061: Dec 26th 2024 at 8:22:43 AM

[up]Agreed, any time that a wick check is needed, it needs to be complete. (50 or square root of total wicks.) It does also work best if the full example snippet is included in the sandbox.

You certainly can ask for help to complete a wick check. (IDK if we'd want to mention the project thread?)

Technically, you can come back and generate another random set of wicks if you want. You'll just have to skip over any duplicates.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#3062: Dec 26th 2024 at 8:26:54 AM

It mentions the project thread mainly because it was originally designed for wick check collabs and I wanted people to know it was an option. At the time it wasn't simply "asking for help" so much as "do you want to work with others?". That's fallen out of fashion though so the link has stopped being relevant.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
GastonRabbit MOD C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#3063: Dec 31st 2024 at 2:40:01 AM

Belatedly swapped in F Sharp's rewrite of the section for gathering a sample on Administrivia.How To Do A Wick Check.

Edit: Removed the sentence "You can check a smaller number of wicks if you feel you're not up to the task, but unless your results are very conclusive, they will likely be challenged on the basis of your sample not being large enough to be representative" for reasons that were already pointed out.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 31st 2024 at 4:43:31 AM

I got a rock for Halloween.
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3064: Jan 3rd 2025 at 10:05:19 AM

Suggestion for TV Tropes Glossary:

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#3065: Jan 3rd 2025 at 11:34:51 AM

[up] Correction: YMMV items are not argenfargles. They are tropes, just ones that are often subjective. Audience Reactions and Trivia are argenfargles. Also, I cordially despise that jargon, despite it being an Eddie-ism.

If I were to get pedantic, I prefer the terms Objective Trope, Subjective Trope, Audience Reaction, and Trivia. These are sufficiently distinctive and descriptive.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 3rd 2025 at 2:35:54 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3066: Jan 3rd 2025 at 12:10:31 PM

[up] I don't like it either, but this sometimes keeps brought up and I only had an approximate idea of what it refers to.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
N1KF Alleged Number1KirbyFan (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Alleged Number1KirbyFan
#3067: Jan 3rd 2025 at 2:17:18 PM

[up][up]So the page on Subjective Tropes is wrong?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#3068: Jan 3rd 2025 at 2:29:44 PM

I said that I prefer that nomenclature. It's one of the points where I disagreed with Eddie, back in the day.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lymantria Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph from Toronto Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
#3069: Jan 3rd 2025 at 2:38:57 PM

What about YMMV items makes them more tropes than Audience Reactions? Note that the latter is a subcategory of the former.

Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#3070: Jan 3rd 2025 at 2:41:49 PM

The difference is that YMMV tropes are based on things that objectively do happen in the work, but people might not agree with the assessment of them; things like Big-Lipped Alligator Moment, Moral Event Horizon, Complete Monster, and Magnificent Bastard.

Audience Reactions are specifically about how fans think; in a way they're not technically subjective since we aren't taking sides or arguing in favor of any particular reaction, just stating that they exist. But they cannot be objectively spotted in the work since they come from the fandom.

In other words, it's the difference between saying "the evidence is here, but you may not read it the same way" and "the audience has these opinions".

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 3rd 2025 at 5:42:46 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Lymantria Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph from Toronto Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
#3071: Jan 3rd 2025 at 2:52:57 PM

This is a bit of a surprise to me, although it does make some sense. Do the staff generally agree on it?

Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#3072: Jan 3rd 2025 at 3:26:27 PM

Yes, that is the generally accepted distinction between YMMV and Audience Reactions. It's mainly a disagreement about what to call the stuff that we lump into the "YMMV-but-not-Audience-Reactions" bucket.

The overlap point is the "YMMV" term. Obviously, audience reactions are subjective interpretations by the people who have them, but as noted above there is no debate over whether they factually exist.

Whatever we decide to name them, the four major categories are:

  • Stuff what happens in the work factually and without dispute (Tropes)
  • Stuff what happens in the work but people disagree about it (YMMV / Subjective Tropes)
  • Stuff what happens in the minds of audience members but not in the work itself (Audience Reactions)
  • Stuff what happens around the work and may affect its creation but is neither subjective nor carries narrative meaning (Trivia)

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 3rd 2025 at 6:31:56 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3073: Jan 3rd 2025 at 3:36:47 PM

Not a Trope already has a full list.

YMMV are for "not everyone may agree" are examples and Audience Reactions are for work's reception, even if they go to the same tab, at least it's the separation I'm used to. Unsure what's currently the confusion.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#3074: Jan 3rd 2025 at 3:49:39 PM

For myself, I think that YMMV items should be considered tropes, while Audience Reactions are not. The fact that both of them go on a YMMV subpage might give the opposite impression.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3075: Jan 3rd 2025 at 3:50:51 PM

Audience Reactions is also a sub-index of YMMV, due to some simplification.

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 3rd 2025 at 2:51:17 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

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