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bwburke94 Friends forevermore from uǝʌɐǝɥ Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
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#51: Aug 5th 2019 at 6:34:53 PM

[up][up] (HighCrate)

We aren't treating trailers as separate works. We're treating trailers as if they advertise the main work. (This is why the attempt to move the Sword/Shield page to Advertising/ failed; the work being described was still a video game, even if all its tropes came from its advertisements.)

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HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#52: Aug 5th 2019 at 9:17:35 PM

I didn't say they were "separate" works. I said they are capable of containing tropes, and those tropes exist in the trailers whether they turn out to be present in the work the trailer advertises or not. Therefore it is accurate to say that "this trope happens in the trailer," but speculation to assume that because it happens in the trailer, it must necessarily also happen in the work.

DragonRanger (Troper Knight)
#53: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:39:54 PM

Let's try a more specific example. In the press conference for Zero-One, the characters of Vulcan and Valkyrie were described as hating robots. The trailer doesn't contradict this, but it doesn't spend the time to 100% confirm it either. (Vulcan has a line that amounts to "destroy them all", but without the context to determine whether he's outlining a mission or if it comes from a deep personal hatred as the character description indicates.) Even without the trailer's support, can't we just take the press conference at its word that these guys hate robots?

Similarly, Zero-One is shown with a Cool Sword in a few scenes in the trailer, but magazines have shown it off and how it unfolds from a briefcase, and given it a name. The magazines have always been accurate in the past, so even if the sword wasn't in the trailer, I would think that the information is reliable enough to start talking about it in trope entries.

Edited by DragonRanger on Aug 6th 2019 at 2:40:12 AM

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#54: Aug 6th 2019 at 4:45:07 PM

[up] "Hating robots" isn't, to my knowledge, a trope. If it were, I would want an entry write-up to give full context for why they hate robots, what effect it has on the story, how it plays out in the character's actions, etc. You don't get that kind of context from "Word of God said in an interview that this character hates robots."

While it's certainly possible, it's not that I think it's likely that the creator is lying and the characters will actually love robots in the final work. It's more that Word of God is no substitute for the work itself when it comes to context.

Cool Sword, like most of the "Cool X" and "Badass X" tropes, has its own problems that make it a magnet for ZCEs and make it difficult to figure out what good context even is even under the best of circumstances.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 6th 2019 at 4:46:25 AM

DragonRanger (Troper Knight)
#55: Aug 6th 2019 at 5:16:32 PM

I'm using these more as examples of "why are these sources considered invalid?" rather than the specific tropes they would apply to. But for what it's worth, the Zero-One page has a commented-out entry for Fantastic Racism that discusses the characters' hatred of robots. (I'd paste it here, but I'm afraid we'd be distracted by the minutiae of the example instead of discussing the policy.)

It's more that Word of God is no substitute for the work itself when it comes to context.

Agreed. But lacking the work, can't we use other sources? Why is a press conference "just" Word of God? And why is a trailer authoritative enough to use when other things aren't? As seen when I presented the example, trailers don't necessarily give all the context either.

Edited by DragonRanger on Aug 6th 2019 at 5:22:47 AM

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#56: Aug 6th 2019 at 5:42:33 PM

That's one reason we always have to specify that a trope happens "in the trailer," because you're right, sometimes the context might be different in the final work. That's also why some tropes (mostly ones involving the plot of the work as a whole) aren't allowed pre-release even with a trailer as citation.

It's also worth noting that there's no rule against mentioning Word of God in example text, it's just not acceptable as the sole source of context.

DragonRanger (Troper Knight)
#57: Aug 7th 2019 at 10:18:48 AM

That's... not my point. I'm not objecting to any of that. Am I really not communicating that well?

Let me start over. Trailers, press conferences, websites — they're all ways that creators tell us about their upcoming works. They're not just informal Word of God statements, they're official releases of information meant to describe the work to the public.

Yet they're all not completely representative of the work. Context is missing. The work may undergo a last-minute change. Hey, sometimes there can even be deliberate deception involved.

These standards of being official statements yet not immune to error are the same for all forms of material. So why do we allow some of this material and not others? Why does the policy dismiss some of these formats as merely "speculation"?

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#58: Aug 7th 2019 at 11:15:36 AM

Because we don't trope works that aren't out yet. If a trailer is out, and tropes are present in it, we can list those tropes. Whether the trailer is representative of the final work or not is irrelevant, because we're not troping what we think will happen in the final work based on the trailer. We're troping what happens in the trailer.

Word of God interviews aren't tropable works, they're the creator talking about a work that's not out yet. Maybe what they're saying is 100% accurate, maybe it's accurate but incomplete, maybe it's entirely inaccurate. Doesn't matter: even if it's 100% accurate, it's still a future-tense statement about something that hasn't happened yet.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 7th 2019 at 11:17:00 AM

DragonRanger (Troper Knight)
#59: Aug 7th 2019 at 12:05:52 PM

Okay, I think we've finally gotten to the core of the conflict.

I — and I think most other people — don't view trailers as works in themselves. When we talk about information from a trailer, we generally accept it as being in the work itself (accounting for the margins of error I described above, of course).

So when you say "we don't trope works that aren't out yet" — sure we do! When a game trailer comes out, people don't trope the trailer, they trope the game based on the trailer. If you want everyone editing to approach trailers in a vacuum and ignore the works they represent — well, I think you'll have a heck of a time getting so many people to alter their mindsets.

I'm going to take a break and let other people get a word in here.

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#60: Aug 7th 2019 at 12:44:19 PM

Which is why I originally argued that allowing works pages for unreleased works was unfeasible. I argued that nobody was interested in troping trailers, they were interested in using it as a convenient excuse to indulge in speculation about unreleased works.

It turns out I wasn't entirely correct: there are people who seem honestly interested in cataloging tropes that happen in trailers for unreleased works without speculating about the works themselves. I'm not one of them (I'd rather just wait until the final work is out and trope that), but they do exist.

It seems like you would like to be troping works that aren't out yet and using both trailers and Word of God / other supplemental materials as a basis for speculation. And you're not alone in that (although most folks aren't quite so up-front about it).

The thing is, that is explicitly forbidden in the policy as set forth on Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work:

In covering pre-release works, we are only troping... its advertising solely as advertising.

Pre-dating that, we've got this passage from How to Write an Example:

You may have a good reason for assuming the trope will be used in a show eventually, but if you haven't seen the trope in the work, you haven't seen the trope used in the work, whether it's because the creators haven't put it in yet, because they're not going to put it in, or because you haven't actually seen the work in question.

A trope's presence in advertising does not make it a foregone conclusion that it will happen in the same way (or at all) in the final work. The policy in this wiki has always been to trope only works that are publicly available, and that did not change with the new policy.

TL;DR - If a work is not out yet, you can't trope it. If a trailer for a work is out, you can trope the trailer.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 7th 2019 at 7:19:19 AM

bwburke94 Friends forevermore from uǝʌɐǝɥ Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
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#61: Aug 7th 2019 at 7:48:56 PM

The policy in this wiki has always been to trope only works that are publicly available, and that did not change with the new policy.

[up] What you claim "the policy in this wiki has always been" is inconsistent with the way we were actually doing things before February. And given your past (mis)interpretations of policy, it would be nice to have a third party clear things up instead of arguing amongst ourselves.

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HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#62: Aug 7th 2019 at 7:59:15 PM

Yes, a lot of people were habitually breaking policy before we started enforcing it in an organized manner. It's not dissimilar from the site's chronic Zero-Context Example problem.

I have quoted two different Administrivia pages, neither of which were written by me, one of which has been on the books for literally years. I'm not sure what further clarification you're looking for.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 7th 2019 at 8:02:56 AM

Primis Since: Nov, 2010
#63: Aug 7th 2019 at 8:58:12 PM

I would still like to see some evidence that this was a real problem that desperately needed fixing, and not just something that you personally don't like and are crusading against.

There's a lot of problems that need fixing on the wiki, but from what I can tell, Speculative Troping has never been a particularly big one, like ZCEs.

Micromanaging pages for unreleased works, and then washing your hands of them once they're released and after you've commented-out 95% of the (in all likelihood, still perfectly valid) examples does not improve the wiki at all. It's going way overboard, like setting your house on fire because you saw a spider.

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#64: Aug 7th 2019 at 9:30:47 PM

[up] [tup][awesome] Hitting the nail square on the head.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Aug 7th 2019 at 12:31:37 PM

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WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#65: Aug 7th 2019 at 9:48:20 PM

I'm inclined to agree. There's a healthy balance between filling the wiki with un-sourced speculation and rumors, and watching every unreleased work page like a hawk. Even with the best of intentions, it's caused too many disagreements, too much strife, too much controversy. Even when it comes to the ZCE issue I think you're being a bit overzealous, and that's coming from me of all people.

It's just...the common theme here seems to be that when you spot something you think is a problem, you go tackle it head on with the intention to fix it. And that's not a bad thing at all...except when the solution wasn't something discussed beforehand, or acts on rules not completely understood/set in stone yet, and especially not when there are people who disagree with the course of action you plan to take.

I know you have good intentions, HighCrate, but your stubbornness is creating issues.

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DragonRanger (Troper Knight)
#66: Aug 7th 2019 at 10:20:58 PM

HighCrate, of the two policies you quoted, the first is the one that I'm actively pushing to change (more on that in a second). The second could be interpreted as just "don't go crazy with Wild Mass Guessing". And frankly, you edited a part of that section yourself (though admittedly not the part you quoted), which makes it suspect.

Either way, the existing policy needs to change, because trailers are not works. Ultimately I'm not as concerned with prerelease troping as much as I am with consistency in the policy. If we're not supposed to trope works before they're released, then go all the way: no trailers, no work pages at all. If we are permitted to enter examples based on trailers, then we should open it up to other media as well. As the policy is now, it's just a confusing double standard that leads to arguments like the one we're having now.

I was thinking along the same lines as bwburke; I'd like to get a mod in here so that we can consult them on their intention with the prerelease policy. If we're not supposed to do any troping before release, I'd like to hear it from them directly.

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#67: Aug 7th 2019 at 10:38:45 PM

nombretomado was the moderator who spearheaded the most recent iteration of the unreleased works policy; that would be the person to ask for clarification on intention or to petition for the policy to be changed.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 7th 2019 at 10:51:34 AM

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#68: Aug 7th 2019 at 10:55:45 PM

im going to weigh in on the "trailers shouldn't be troped at all" side. i don't think we lose anything by not having tropes for an unreleased work. pages for unreleased works should be given a complete example sectionectomy, and merely acknowledge that the work exists, a brief synopsis of what is explicitly known about it, and the release date.

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
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#69: Aug 8th 2019 at 8:05:52 AM

Micromanaging pages for unreleased works, and then washing your hands of them once they're released and after you've commented-out 95% of the (in all likelihood, still perfectly valid) examples does not improve the wiki at all. It's going way overboard, like setting your house on fire because you saw a spider.
That's more insulting to the fans trying to create the trope page than it is to the people who are trying to keep the wiki in line with current policy. HighCrate isn't the one going around speculating on random works and abandoning the pages for the work after watching it. HighCrate isn't the one advocating to trope the advertising and ignore the actual work. You're demanding that Vader should have "Seamless Spontaneous Lie" because he was, in all likelihood, lying. We already had reliable testimony that Anakin had died by Vader's hand. Speculative Troping demands higher than "reasonable doubt", it demands incontrovertible evidence.

Speculation doesn't belong on the main wiki. That's why I argued unreleased works should be handled in Darth Wiki. If we only trope works, and trailers are not works, then the work doesn't have enough tropes to get a main wiki page.

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#70: Aug 8th 2019 at 8:10:06 AM

[up]moving unreleased works to Darth Wiki would be an acceptable compromise to me. alternatively, give them their own namespace? Unreleased.The Outer Worlds or something like that?

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#71: Aug 8th 2019 at 8:29:24 AM

Ehhhhhhhh...

Unpublished Works is intended for works that are being written by private individuals, focusing on fanfics and similar content that isn't being marketed or advertised to the general public. These are generally in-progress, being written and/or developed, and as such their trope list may change over time. Further, usually only their author has any direct information about the content.

A major product, like a film or video game, isn't going to be the sort of thing that is going to have a semi-private article that is edited by the production staff alone, never to be touched by anyone else until the thing is released.

To suggest that we can use Darth Wiki for yet another category of unfinished article is missing the point. That namespace was never intended for this purpose, and even its use for unpublished works is a bit of a kludge. It feels like an attempt to have one's cake and eat it too: engage in unconstrained rules violations in a space that pretends not to be a part of the main wiki and thus escape scrutiny, yet still have an article that will draw views and inbound links.

That's what this discussion feels like: "But I really, really want to break TV Tropes' rules. Give me an official space to do it in, please!" No.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 8th 2019 at 11:33:19 AM

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#72: Aug 8th 2019 at 8:36:55 AM

[up]im not sure how you got that impression from my post when the one before that was suggesting that examples be cut from them entirely, but ok.

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Primis Since: Nov, 2010
#73: Aug 8th 2019 at 10:35:03 AM

HighCrate isn't the one going around speculating on random works and abandoning the pages for the work after watching it.

Still waiting on that evidence that this was a widespread problem...

You're demanding that Vader should have "Seamless Spontaneous Lie" because he was, in all likelihood, lying. We already had reliable testimony that Anakin had died by Vader's hand.

Wow, this is the most blatant bad-faith argument I've seen in a long time.

First of all, dead link.

Second, "in all likelihood" was in reference to tropes gleaned from trailers, and you know it. This is a transparent attempt to turn my words back on me, and you're obviously, deliberately misinterpreting them. We're talking about promotional material for unreleased works, not entire works that predate the wiki by 20+ years.

Speculative Troping demands higher than "reasonable doubt", it demands incontrovertible evidence. Speculation doesn't belong on the main wiki.

And if you actually bothered to read my comments on this policy, you'd see that I've never once advocated shutting it down entirely. Keep the thread open, cut speculation when you find it, just don't burn the whole wiki down because a couple of pages might be a little speculative.

The ironic thing is that assuming every single promo-based example that gets added is speculation, is speculation itself. This whole policy is based on the assumption that Trailers Always Lie is absolute. Can you imagine if instead, we started a policy inspired by Trailers Always Spoil? Would every promo-based example get spoilered-out? With the way this policy ended up, you certainly can't rule it out.

Just turn the existing thread into one to report Speculative Troping, you know, like literally every single other long-term project thread. Nightmare Fuel is something that does have massive, wide-spread misuse, but we didn't put a moratorium on new NF pages, did we? No, we just cut misuse when we find it, and lock particularly troublesome pages, like NightmareFuel.RWBY.

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#74: Aug 8th 2019 at 10:51:36 AM

High Crate isn't the one going around speculating on random works and abandoning the pages for the work after watching it.

Most of the examples HC has hidden are perfectly eligible examples that follow the rules, but are deemed "speculation" because they aren't cited (usually because the tropers who added them aren't familiar with the new rules). If HC makes time to in his obviously busy schedule to comment out everything, then he could make time to actually watch the trailers that are usually linked within the description and cite them himself, saving extra work for others down the road. This obviously wouldn't apply to works that have no trailers, but in those cases it would be okay to assume any examples were either speculation or uncited Word of God sources and comment them out.

That's what this discussion feels like: "But I really, really want to break TV Tropes' rules. Give me an official space to do it in, please!"

No??? Aside from maybe Dragon Ranger (who still has a valid question in regards to why one form of advertisement is more credible than the others despite coming from the same source), this thread has been about HC being ridiculously over-restrictive in his attempts at cleaning pages. None of us are trying to break the rules or deviously skirt past them.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Aug 8th 2019 at 2:57:38 PM

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Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
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#75: Aug 8th 2019 at 1:18:04 PM

To be honest, I feel like HighCrate's interpretation of the policy is perfectly valid, if strict.

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