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WarJay77 Spooky Scary from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Spooky Scary
Sep 19th 2019 at 12:10:42 PM

It'd be a good test case.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
rjd1922 Paladin from Illinois Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Paladin
Sep 19th 2019 at 2:17:13 PM

Sure, let's use that as a test case.

Steel be with you.
nombretomado MOD the formatting mod from just kind of around Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
the formatting mod
Sep 19th 2019 at 5:03:17 PM

Go ahead with the test case.

I'd like to address a few things while I'm on here. There's been some good points raised, and I feel like the mod actions taken haven't provided a lot of clarity, where some is desperately needed:

  • We feel that the policy specifically about unreleased works has a good reason. Because of the amount of materials and hype that comes with a big-name release nowadays (see almost any MCU in the last 5 years), we felt that a set of rules should have been codified in one place, instead of bits and pieces scattered around.
  • Interestingly enough, the folder/heading thing was suggested, and shot down, before the policy was put into place. If I feel like digging around for it, I'll see what the talk was. But that was before we actually had this being implemented, so we know things for certain now, as opposed to suppositions then.
  • Citations have been one of the things with the most push-back, and, frankly, as the primary author of the policy, I'm sorry the lack of clarity has led to so many disputes. The intention was simply this: we don't have the work in full, and readers should know where the tropes are coming from.
  • How those citations are made is not something I've been super-intent on, as long as it's reasonably placed, clear, and as effective as we can hope for. We really don't like having to get into the level of minutae that dictates "citation must be placed here" as, yes, it seems rather draconian.
  • Partially related to this is that examples that are based on footage/trailer/et al should be able to have their sufficient context from footage/trailer/et al. I think at least some of the examples that have been quarreled over (not specifically the latest ones) have been at fault from that, where partial context is from the footage et al, but some phrasing implies it to be in the work full, or "fills in the gaps" with assumptions.

Anyway - there appears to be rather a gaping wound in the last few pages, and I hope that addresses some of it. The matter suspension I will refer to the Appeal to the moderation/suspension thread, as another mod did that piece.

Edited by nombretomado on Sep 19th 2019 at 5:12:02 AM

Sep 20th 2019 at 12:22:12 PM

[up]I was the one who initially proposed using separate folders for demo versions of unreleased games on pages 45 and 46 of the cleanup thread. High Crate counter-argued that it was a bad idea, because once the work comes out, people could just delete the folder markup without verifying whether or not it actually applies to the full game. I'm not fully convinced by this argument, since they could do the same with the citations (HighCrate claims that this is less likely since you'd have to manually go through each example, which is more effort, but I'm not sure that this would actually deter people).

WarJay77 Spooky Scary from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Spooky Scary
Sep 20th 2019 at 12:43:42 PM

I'm reading it over, I genuinely don't get their argument when it comes to the assumption that people would just use folders as a free-reign to just post speculation and shoehorns. We'd keep the same standards we do when determining if an example is speculation, just without worrying about if the example says "in the trailer" 5 gazillion times.

Furthermore, I think it's more likely people would just outright delete the folder itself, rather than the markup. After all, deleting the markup would also cause issues with alphabetization, potentially duplicated examples, and just garbage formatting in general. It'd also be easy to tell where the folder began and ended, as the alphabetization would reset when it came to the real examples.

I mean, if everyone is truly as lazy as HC said they were, nobody would bother to fix those things after deleting the folder markup, so if it does happen, it'd be an easy catch. Or, well, we could just check the history...or delete any obviously not-happening-in-the-final-product examples after the fact. I think there's a lot of obvious solutions HC didn't consider.

In other words, let's go forward with the test case.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
Irene Drathe Perrywinkle from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Drathe Perrywinkle
Sep 20th 2019 at 1:19:11 PM

Going forward with the test case sounds good to me. More or less, Warjay covered the issues.

Omega Psycho Rangers Quest 64 Discord(very much safe for work)
Silverblade2 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Sep 20th 2019 at 1:34:44 PM

I don't know whether it's the right place to ask but what about ongoing works?

Kamen Rider Zero-One is currently on its third episode yet lots of people trope about upcoming episodes and characters who haven't been introduced yet. I deleted those, but some restored them latter with percentage signs. Someone asked me if that was koshere.

Irene Drathe Perrywinkle from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Drathe Perrywinkle
Sep 20th 2019 at 1:57:59 PM

I think it's not kosher. We don't trope leaked content in itself. If there's trailers with the characters, and we can make a context example, they would make sense to be in an "unreleased information" folder of sorts, much like the folder we talked about earlier

To clarify something else related, recap pages for episodes not properly released are straight out not allowed(besides that, they're spoilers off).

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WarJay77 Spooky Scary from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Spooky Scary
Sep 20th 2019 at 2:00:57 PM

That's Episodic Troping. There's a thread for that...which I'd link, if you hadn't already posted there.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
Sep 20th 2019 at 2:15:48 PM

Edit: Nevermind; ninja'd by Warjay so there's no good reason to go into leak and pre-emptive commenting rules here.

Edited by DragonRanger on Sep 20th 2019 at 2:20:52 AM

Silverblade2 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Sep 20th 2019 at 2:30:17 PM

I know but the Episodic Troping thread isn't very active...

Sep 20th 2019 at 2:35:33 PM

I took my views on which stuff is okay to include and posted them in the Episodic thread instead, but to answer another of your questions:

For adding early examples in comments, it's a fairly new rule (or at least, new to me) that that's not allowed. Items can be commented-out after the fact if there's a problem, but they shouldn't start that way.

Brainulator9 Regular garden-variety troper. from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Regular garden-variety troper.
Sep 20th 2019 at 5:15:26 PM

I'll just say this now.

I honestly believe that HighCrate was acting in good faith the entire time. His interpretation of the rules is strict, but reasonable, and it's a shame he has to be suspended when he's done such good work for us. Most of the time, I feel I agree with his statements. That said, I also feel that the folder idea makes perfect sense, especially with WarJay77's reasoning listed above.

Perhaps I should go to Google Docs and write a page like this to collect arguments over this thing.

I love when bad shows have great music. Sometimes, it can be worth the hassle of sitting through a bad work.
Irene Drathe Perrywinkle from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Drathe Perrywinkle
Sep 20th 2019 at 5:36:25 PM

[up] This would probably be better in the Appeal To The Moderation thread.

Omega Psycho Rangers Quest 64 Discord(very much safe for work)
WarJay77 Spooky Scary from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Spooky Scary
Sep 20th 2019 at 7:52:14 PM

Just for the record, I also think HC was acting in good faith- just that their efforts made things harder for others, as their stricter interpretation of the rules caused a lot of friction, as did their general stubbornness. That's all.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
nombretomado MOD the formatting mod from just kind of around Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
the formatting mod
Sep 20th 2019 at 8:53:31 PM

Hi everybody - I know there's a lot of overlap going on, but please refrain from making this thread about a single troper. You can make comments in the appeal to moderation thread; or, if you'd like to have a one-on-one private conversation with a mod, you can PM. Or you could even holler and make your case there. Thanks again.

Crossover-Enthusiast She don't know what she does to me from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
She don't know what she does to me
Sep 21st 2019 at 6:49:34 AM

Where's the appeal to moderation thread?

I Fight Dragons are a wonderful band with wonderful music 🐲
rjd1922 Paladin from Illinois Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Paladin
Sep 21st 2019 at 7:27:11 AM

[up]Here, but I personally believe HighCrate has caused so much drama that he should stay out of unreleased work page cleanup, even if he had good intentions.

Steel be with you.
Crossover-Enthusiast She don't know what she does to me from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
She don't know what she does to me
Sep 21st 2019 at 8:48:20 AM

[up] Oh I completely agree, I just had no idea that thread existed and wanted to know where it was.

I Fight Dragons are a wonderful band with wonderful music 🐲
Crossover-Enthusiast She don't know what she does to me from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
She don't know what she does to me
Sep 27th 2019 at 3:53:05 PM

Sorry for the double post, but I've converted The Addams Family (2019) into a test-run page. Apologies as well for the delay.

Oh, and does anyone have a link to the official wording that adding pre-commented out tropes is a no-no? Saw a troper doing it and I was going to send them a PM, but I don't actually know what to cite for the rule.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Sep 27th 2019 at 6:57:45 AM

I Fight Dragons are a wonderful band with wonderful music 🐲
WarJay77 Spooky Scary from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Spooky Scary
Sep 27th 2019 at 3:56:40 PM

[up] It's frowned upon and we all agree it's bad, but I don't think there's an actual rule.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
bwburke94 My Ice Cream Waifu from Remnant Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
My Ice Cream Waifu
Sep 27th 2019 at 5:35:36 PM

[up] It's one of those things where we might not have thought an actual rule was necessary.

Misspelled trope names dealt with... for now. Moving back to the Understatement project soon?
Irene Drathe Perrywinkle from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Drathe Perrywinkle
Sep 27th 2019 at 5:36:48 PM

Generally, it's not that helpful for us, since a lot of people might not have access to the actual pre-released work.

It might be helpful on a page for an already released work, because the trope may fit but you aren't sure of how yet(and even then, there's better ways than doing that). Commenting out a poor example is far from the same thing as throwing it in. At that point, why not use the Wiki Sandbox variant of the page or make your own text file to slowly work on it?

But yeah, it's not a hard rule at all. There's nothing to cite. I would argue that it shouldn't be done for pre-release works, though, since only the people who seen the work at that point can work with the commented out trope. It just wastes space that many can't do anything with. I mean, I wouldn't say it's such a space waster it'd affect the wiki either, but still.

Omega Psycho Rangers Quest 64 Discord(very much safe for work)
bwburke94 My Ice Cream Waifu from Remnant Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
My Ice Cream Waifu
Oct 3rd 2019 at 2:32:58 PM

Technically only an unreleased half-episode, but the first 12 minutes of RWBY Volume 7 were just unexpectedly released at NYCC, 37 days before the public release.

I assume we're still waiting for November 9 to actually trope this material?

Misspelled trope names dealt with... for now. Moving back to the Understatement project soon?
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York
Musician/Composer
Oct 3rd 2019 at 3:56:15 PM

Probably.

No matter who you are, always be yourself.

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