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The Boys (2019 Amazon series)

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FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#1401: Jul 7th 2024 at 10:15:19 AM

When Stormfront first appeared she made Homelander visibly uncomfortable, and her being a social media influencer was pretty amusing. It made the Neo-Nazi reveal impactful.

Edited by FOFD on Jul 7th 2024 at 1:15:44 PM

Elmo3000 from UK Since: Jul, 2013
#1402: Jul 7th 2024 at 10:44:46 AM

I didn't expect any more from Tek-Knight but even with the series successfully distancing itself from the endless edgelord shite of the comic, it is kind of grating that (almost) every single superhero in this universe has to be simultaneously two-dimensional but also ridiculously over-the-top evil. Reminds me of Punisher MAX, where the impact of seeing how depraved the latest villain is - a nazi paedophile racist incestuous drug addict sex offender former-klansman misogynist who does war crimes and says the n-word a lot - is diminished by the fact that... Garth, this is the sixteenth time this series you've written a guy like this. Fuck, man. Come up with something new. And wasn't Tek-Knight one of the only heroes in the comic who was actually half-decent? It was cool when Supersonic showed up in Season 3... only to immediately be stuffed into a fridge.

That said, given how some fans of the show still think Soldier Boy is based and redpilled, I kind of admire the explicit, shoving it in your face, "We will make this as clear as have to for you to not miss the point"-ness of having a villain who is defeated because they threatened to donate his money to Black Lives Matter.

indigoJay from The Astral Plane Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#1403: Jul 7th 2024 at 10:50:47 AM

If the metric for "non-one-dimensional" is "entertaining before being revealed as cartoonishly evil," I feel like Tek Knight meets it. Him interrogating the kids and uh...engaging in less evil fetishes...was pretty funny. I also liked his true crime parody show.

I disagree with the criticisms I'm seeing elsewhere that it's stupid that a Batman expy profits off of incarceration. The point of the show isn't to provide alternate interpretations of existing superheroes; it's a Deconstruction thinking through how people in those heroes' shoes would realistically develop in America. I think Tek Knight is a much more realistic outcome for a multibillionaire-from-birth surrounded by crime than Bruce Wayne.

I do think the pivot to Batman is weird, though. Tek Knight very much came off as a true crime parody to me in Gen V. What was the thinking there? Kripke hasn't hesitated to completely redo characters from the comics; why did he backtrack on this one? (In terms of Tek Knight's backstory/position as a hero; not his morality.)

Edited by indigoJay on Jul 7th 2024 at 1:52:56 PM

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#1404: Jul 7th 2024 at 2:35:22 PM

Critiquing Batman with a parody who "beats up poor people, is highly obliviously racist, and is a costumed freak" is... definitely a thematic choice.

Superman's a dictator, Batman's a racist freak, Aquaman's a rapey toxic male bully, The Flash is an Uncle Tom. Wonder Woman is a victim.

And they all work for FOX news.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1405: Jul 7th 2024 at 3:13:26 PM

[up][up]Does it count as a "Deconstruction" if it's what Kripke actually thinks ks true of the actual Batman comics. Which he said in that uh infamous interview.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1406: Jul 7th 2024 at 3:29:09 PM

Kripke is a brilliant showrunner, but his interviews show that he doesn't really seem to understand superheroes at all.

[down]...yeah, probably should have included "at least initially", because yeah, it does feel like things are meandering a lot.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Jul 7th 2024 at 6:39:26 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1407: Jul 7th 2024 at 3:36:13 PM

Uh I mean. He's great at setting up shows. Early super natural and the boys.

But the dude meanders way too much when it comes time to end. Which is why people have had issues this season with how we're on episode 6 of 8. And it doesn't feel like anything has really moved.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Moekou Since: Nov, 2009
#1408: Jul 7th 2024 at 4:47:40 PM

Don't recall the trope name but rather than seeing it being about what a character represents, I strongly felt it as an extreme version of Idiot Ball or Villain Ball where the plot wants to get rid of them and the goal is to justify killing them in cold blood as something to cheer for. When a character that seemed fairly reasonable if weird or annoying suddenly starts ranting about how much they love shooting puppies and raping kids. It feels like a tactic to instantly remove all redeeming qualities so now we can have the good guys rip them limb from limb without mercy. As soon as I heard him bragging about his slave-hunting ancestors to A-Train I figured he was a goner.

Edited by Moekou on Jul 7th 2024 at 9:53:44 AM

igordebraga from Brazil Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#1410: Jul 7th 2024 at 7:14:33 PM

[up][up] Thought of Moral Event Horizon, but that usually doesn't have an element of stupidity (aside from Revenge Before Reason cases), and is done with actions rather than dialogue.

indigoJay from The Astral Plane Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#1411: Jul 7th 2024 at 8:12:18 PM

Does it count as a "Deconstruction" if it's what Kripke actually thinks ks true of the actual Batman comics. Which he said in that uh infamous interview.

...ok, I didn't see that he said that. Yeah, that's pretty bad. I still think this is a more realistic portrayal of how someone in Batman's position would turn out, but that's clearly not what Batman is.

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#1412: Jul 7th 2024 at 9:11:09 PM

[up]Eh, I'm not sure I'd agree with the characterization given of the quote. Assuming it's the Variety interview, here's the only direct references to Batman:

Obviously, Tek Knight is our version of Batman, and we wanted to really play around with that trope: Batman’s fascist underpinnings as a really wealthy dude who hunts poor people, and then profits of the incarceration.

My read of that is that he certainly thinks Batman has fascist undertones (which is a fairly common read, though I wouldn't actually say fascist), but the second part of that sentence seems to me to be referring to Tek Knight, not Batman, though it's not entirely clear.

Edited by ECD on Jul 7th 2024 at 9:13:08 AM

Moekou Since: Nov, 2009
#1413: Jul 7th 2024 at 10:17:12 PM

[up]Funny enough the Blue Beetle trailer ends with someone saying "Batman's a facist" verbatim, and there was a bunch of people complaining about how this showed it was "going woke" and trash (like how they're reacting to the current The Boys season), even though it's a joke straight from DC.

The Blue Beetle was also a major inspiration for Tek Knight's suit in the comics (where he's also an amalgamation of Iron Man, the whole reason why he's named Tek Knight) so it was pretty disappointing they didn't give him one at all in the show. When I watched Gen V I was thinking maybe they'd leave with the impression he was a bit of a joke with the hole thing, only to make him a serious physical threat in The Boys proper.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#1414: Jul 7th 2024 at 10:23:40 PM

The Blue Beetle joke gets really funny in the movie cause the guy who says it is a huge fan of Ted Kord Blue Beetle, considering him a great superhero and inspirational man of the people. And he still thinks this even after finding out BB is the billionaire Ted Kord, considering Ted the white sheep of the Kord family.

So he just dislikes Batman more so cause he's a scary guy who he thinks doesn't do enough for the community.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
indigoJay from The Astral Plane Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#1415: Jul 8th 2024 at 8:07:44 AM

Ok, the referent of "profits off of incarceration" is unclear, but that quote is less bad than I thought. Like, I don't really see the problem in saying that Batman—even in the comics—has fascist underpinnings of a wealthy dude who hunts poor people. That's a pretty defensible read. The fact that Batman has enemies who aren't poor and donates some money to good things doesn't change the fact that "billionaire who takes it upon himself to roam the street and beat up criminals" is a questionable premise.

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1416: Jul 8th 2024 at 8:27:14 AM

Doesn't this fall into the shitty belief that being poor =/= criminal.

I also want to know which vilains are you talking about being those poor criminals. Black Mask? Hugo strange? Scarecrow?

Edited by miraculous on Jul 8th 2024 at 8:27:48 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#1417: Jul 8th 2024 at 8:32:32 AM

It fall into the common progressive fallacy that criminals are products of the system and that many criminals are not predators on the proletariat because of Greed. Which is one of those that neither side is wrong but there's definitely examples of both.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 8th 2024 at 8:33:18 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1418: Jul 8th 2024 at 8:34:07 AM

Or the fact that sometimes people are just bad (serial killers, rapists, etc.).

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#1419: Jul 8th 2024 at 8:37:46 AM

I actually wrote an essay about Batman that argued it does more for a progressive view than a conservative.

Batman is a billionaire who cannot fix Gotham City because he is up against systemic problems.

Thus challenging a lot of the conervative views about privatization and societal ills. Batman for all of his wealth and power is up against a corrupt system, police force, mass poverty, and so on that he just tries to bail out water from.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#1420: Jul 8th 2024 at 9:36:29 AM

Gen V is something I get the impression was forced on Kripke by Amazon and he clearly didn't think it would be the massive hit it was. As such, they included the characters in only the most perfunctory ways and not really concerned too much with their characterization.

As I said a while back, this also shows when it comes to Cate and Sam's appearance in episode 5.

Especially the scene of Cameron Coleman's death, where I was definitely left with the impression they must've done some serious editing after Gen V turned out to be a success. Like, the scene of Coleman's death is edited such so that Cate and Sam aren't shown onscreen doing anything bad, and it's clear that something was cut. Especially when we get the closeups on their faces; the editing there feels a little messy, like those closeups were added to replace something else. You only see Cate's and Sam's faces, but their line delivery and acting come off like Maddie Phillips and Asa Germann were saying these one-liners to an empty set when they're supposed to be speaking to Homelander. Not to mention Sam's hair length; his hair is shorter when he and Cate are talking to A-Train before Homelander walks in (similar to how it looks in the early episodes of Gen V), but his hair looks longer and parted differently in the close-up (similar to how it looks in the later episodes of Gen V), suggesting that the close-ups might've been from a reshoot.

Edited by dmcreif on Jul 8th 2024 at 12:37:54 PM

Okey Dokey!
indigoJay from The Astral Plane Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#1421: Jul 8th 2024 at 11:25:40 AM

I also want to know which vilains are you talking about being those poor criminals. Black Mask? Hugo strange? Scarecrow?

...isn't the Joker's most famous origin story that he was a factory-worker-turned-standup-comedian who couldn't make ends meet? Does Batman not beat up Mooks who are essentially average gang members in pursuit of the Falcones, the Maronis, Zucco...like I think the argument that he's actually progressive and only goes after rich people who do crimes because they're "just bad people" is clearly not true. He does go after rich supervillains, but he beats up a lot of nameless grunts in the process. Is the argument that those nameless grunts are also rich, or that it's offensive to claim that most people who take on dangerous low-level jobs in gangs are poor?

I think the argument that "most criminals do crimes because they're super fucked up people" is flawed. A lot of Batman's enemies are just super fucked up people, but that doesn't make Batman progressive in the real world; the premise that most crime centres around niche psychological conditions or obsessions is made up. The progressive "crimes of necessity" argument is flawed (people don't steal loaves of bread to feed their families like they used to), but it's logical that more disenfranchised people with fewer better career options would be willing to take up jobs with gangs than rich people who can just leverage their connections/easily get a university degree. I think it is more realistic that an American billionaire who is disillusioned with crime would pursue Tek Knight strategies over Batman ones.

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#1422: Jul 8th 2024 at 11:33:05 AM

Honestly as a person who hails from a struggling economic situation and country (Cuba) I get annoyed at the idea that Batman's antagonists are inherently more sympathetic cause they are on the lower end of the economic latter than he is. Poor people can be tremendous assholes too, they aren't saints. I mean a slaver probably started out poor but I'm not going to shed tears for them because plenty of people in their shoes don't use it as an excuse to hurt other people.

The whole thing with Batman hot takes is just an overreaction to the terrible uber-rich people like Musk and Bezos that we have to deal with. Like I hate those rich fucks as much as anyone else, but I'm not going to take it out on Batman. Thats just stupid.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 8th 2024 at 11:34:58 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1423: Jul 8th 2024 at 11:41:13 AM

I don't like it either since as someone who also comes from an impoverished country (South Africa) and crime capital. (and even lost a friend years ago to a robbery gone wrong). All these people do is further wreck struggling communities. Seeing people scared to go out and how they choose to do the worst possible choice and make it worse for the people who didn't.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
indigoJay from The Astral Plane Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#1424: Jul 8th 2024 at 11:46:45 AM

I don't feel sympathy for poor people who commit sexual assault and become slavers. I don't even really feel sympathy (on a personal level) for poor people who commit murder. I do think that the Mooks who prop up Gotham's gangs might choose to do something other than walk around with crobars if they had solid educational and employment options. I'm Palestinian; I am well aware that people can be poor and evil. I am also well aware that poor people often go down bad paths because they don't have better options. I'm not some ignorant American wealthy person.

I'm arguing that "the solution to crime is roaming the streets and tossing everyone who commits any crime into an inhumane jail" is a) not that far removed from Batman (afaik Blackgate got shut down by Amnesty International at some point) b) an incredibly ineffective way to stop crime in the long-run c) likely to disproportionately punish poor people irl (outside of Batman's universe's fantasy logic) and d) something billionaires are a lot more likely to do than "just go after the psychologically messed up rich people who are evil for personal reasons." This is why I think Tek Knight's existence is defensible.

Edited by indigoJay on Jul 8th 2024 at 2:48:06 PM

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
CheapMarzipan A Low Cost Confection Since: Dec, 2020 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
A Low Cost Confection
#1425: Jul 8th 2024 at 12:54:49 PM

[up] I guess part of the issue is that these don’t seem like meaningful criticisms to modern Batman. This has been brought up and addressed by Batman media for decades at this point.


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