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Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment (ROCEJ): Violations, misuse, and other issues

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The Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment exists to prevent tropers from making agenda-based edits or bringing up irrelevant controversial issues, but it's not always obvious if something breaks the rule or not. This thread serves the purposes of:

  • Getting consensus on cutting overly controversial edits.
  • Rewriting biased examples to be more neutral.
  • Pre-emptively clarifying if a possible example actually violates the rule, or if it's okay to add.
  • Making sure that the rule isn't just being used as an excuse to write a Zero-Context Example ("Some people think that X is Y, and that's all we have to say about it.")

Notes regarding edits related to current political figures

  • Current political figures should not be a subject of any trope example on the wiki, except when they meet all three of the following criteria:
    • When the work in question specifically mentions the real life individual.
    • When the entirety of the example has to do with the portrayal of that individual in the work.
    • When the work is fictional.
  • Alternatively, when a current political figure has a creative role themselves, such as writing or acting in a work, we give them no more nor less treatment then we would any other creator.
  • Additionally, please make sure to take out any examples of Harsher in Hindsight or Hilarious in Hindsight regarding current political figures. A political event that may be seen positively by some people may be seen negatively by others.

Other relevant threads and pages

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 19th 2024 at 12:40:14 PM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#1626: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:16:53 PM

[up][up] More good will than I’d be willing to give him, going by those examples.

Of course, it’s not my call, but if he is indeed alt-right, I’ll admit I’m reluctant to approve having such a page remain.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Nov 3rd 2021 at 5:17:15 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1627: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:17:37 PM

It would at least need a clean and lock.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1628: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:17:49 PM

The one thing I remember about him is that he had a Steven Universe video suddenly devolve into a "Jews run the world" conspiracy theory, the punchline being instead of "(((Jews)))" it's "(((Gems)))." Also Pewdiepie shouted him out in a video and then deleted it when he knew what the channel was.

I think there were social media posts, I think on Gab, where E;R talked about antisemitism unironically, i.e. referencing the Jewish Question... IDK if it's standard edgelord shit or actual Nazi shit at this point though. Most of the controversy came through the Pewdiepie thing.

EDIT: Ah, here's the Gab posts, which suggests he's just joking as a means to radicalize people... unless he's joking about that too. God I hate irony-poisoning.

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 3rd 2021 at 5:25:48 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#1629: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:20:36 PM

Well then.

In that case, I’d endorse the most aggressive action possible. Full removal would be my vote, though if that really can’t be done, I think we would need some…balance, I suppose you could say. Definitely remove any and all gushing.

Oh God! Natural light!
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#1630: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:21:21 PM

So Felix is embarrassed to have this guy as a fan? That can't be a good sign.

I agree that the page would need, at best, a clean and lock, at worst an outright purge if there is nothing tropeworthy.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 3rd 2021 at 5:22:17 AM

PotatoPatato Since: Jun, 2011
#1631: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:23:18 PM

I can take a look at the page and maybe improve it a little. I haven't seen most of his content beyond some of the more popular reviews he did (like Netflix Death Note and the Star Wars stuff) so I'm probably not the best qualified to speak about it but he does do some stuff besides reviews such as Youtube Poopish video edits. One example is a video he made making fun of Deus Ex Human Revolution and Bernie Sanders (due to a minor antagonist early in the game sharing a last name with the famous politician). I may not be able to fix the entire page but I'll see what I can do to make it better.

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#1632: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:23:25 PM

[up][up][up]

we cannot delete a page just because we disagree with the content of the work. it does not matter if he is alt-right or not. if he is tropeable, he can have a page. disagreeable political views are not and have never been a valid reason for deletion. the page can be troped fairly, acknowledging his extreme views without supporting them, and still exist.

if the page is to be cut, it will be for lack of tropable work (since reviews don't count), not because he is alt-right.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1633: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:24:57 PM

Though we could lock it. If it becomes too volatile or impossible to keep neutral.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#1634: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:28:21 PM

[up][up] Fair enough. As I said, I’d rather it be gone, but I understand if removal is not an acceptable solution.

Oh God! Natural light!
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1635: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:36:59 PM

we cannot delete a page just because we disagree with the content of the work. it does not matter if he is alt-right or not. if he is tropeable, he can have a page. disagreeable political views are not and have never been a valid reason for deletion. the page can be troped fairly, acknowledging his extreme views without supporting them, and still exist.

Louder With Crowder had arguably more tropeworthy content (shitty politics, yes, but IIRC there were political skits too) and he was still ultimately cut and added to the PRLC.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#1636: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:43:00 PM

Doesn't J Reg exclusively talk about politics, including political skits?

At the very least, that is true of Centricide.

[down] Does he actually have tropeworthy content or not? I'm confused.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:46:48 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#1637: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:44:29 PM

I swear we discussed whether or not Crowder had any creative content. At the time, literally everyone said he didn't.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1638: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:49:10 PM

[up] Another user and I brought up early in the discussion that he had some skits and parodies, but that wasn't really addressed and a lot of people became more concerned about the politics themselves. Even the aforementioned user caved because of the guy's politics. I suggested we go down the page first to be safe, but people just went "Nope, cutlist it."

Which is fine, I don't want Crowder on the wiki, but when we cut works for disagreeing with its stance, I worry people will come after us and/or try to cutlist other stuff with more historical and cultural significance.

As for Jreg, given that there's hundreds of videos of his content across the wiki for some reason, it's clear a lot of his work features characters representing ideologies, which is as fictional as the likes of Axis Powers Hetalia.

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:51:33 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#1639: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:55:31 PM

Okay, I think at the time I didn't really understand what you guys meant because the content was never really elaborated on. So it was way too easy to miss, at least with the comment you linked. I don't remember the exact nuances of the discussion.

I'm generally on the side of "cut it if it's purely political and not creative". I'm not sure I'd have agreed to the cut if I knew more about the situation. But... it is what it is.

As for E;R, I'm on the fence because I'm not sure if reviews alone are enough to be considered tropeworthy. A lot of popular reviewers incorporate skits and characters and comedy which can be troped. On the other hand, you could say that the very act of discussing tropes is tropeworthy enough anyway.

J Reg is fine.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1640: Nov 3rd 2021 at 4:28:11 PM

If he makes Youtube Poop stuff then I guess there's an argument for troping him. There's some tropeworthy content I see on this page, but there's also some inflammatory stuff here and there, like bashing fandoms as a whole for the Sacred Cow approach and weirdly acting like he's the only one to get really edgy and negative about a work. If nothing else, it's annoyingly gushy at times, which would suck even if he wasn't presenting himself as an ambiguously ironic Nazi.

EDIT: There's a "Moment of Awesome" entry for him defending Pewdiepie in light of the whole Nazi controversy, which feels too meta at best and a ROCEJ violation at worse, given the landmine that conversation can be.

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 3rd 2021 at 7:31:46 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
PotatoPatato Since: Jun, 2011
#1641: Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:24:56 PM

I can add a couple links to some of his non-review video content if any of the people here want to see it and judge for themselves. It's mostly the typical edgelord stuff like 9/11 and holocaust jokes with famous media such as Steven Universe or One Punch Man mixed in. Not the most tasteful stuff on the internet but its not all reviews and politics, though most of his more heavily viewed videos are.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1642: Nov 3rd 2021 at 9:07:15 PM

The page shouldn't be cut merely because it's about a person with offensive/controversial political views, but if this

"His videos are written and purposed to dress down their subject matter as cuttingly and abrasively as possible, re-framing them as the worst of the worst in scripted entertainment in brutal contrast to the penchant of popular journalism and fandom to glowingly pedestal them as the greatest. Notable targets include The Legend of Korra, the Disney Star Wars movies (particularly the sequel trilogy), and Life Is Strange."

The other two franchises may count, but since when is the Star Wars sequel trilogy a Sacred Cow? I've seen plenty of criticism (fair and otherwise) of it, far more so than unconditional praise. But it had a woman and a black man in major roles, so of course it has to be universally praised just so people like E;R can cry about Political Correctness Gone Mad.

is a representative entry, then I suspect it's whitewashing his content to the point of outright lies. It probably needs a major cleanup effort.

Edited by nrjxll on Nov 3rd 2021 at 11:07:44 AM

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1643: Nov 3rd 2021 at 11:54:05 PM

[up] That one's one of the most glaring entries, with most of the other issues coming from gushing about Black Comedy. I notice that they bring up this offensive comedy a lot but seem unwilling to actually describe examples of this comedy.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Elmo3000 from UK Since: Jul, 2013
#1644: Nov 4th 2021 at 5:56:35 PM

Not familiar with E semicolon R at all but there is a very clear difference between "I don't think we should have a page for this guy because his politics are controversial and potentially offensive to some" and "I don't think we should have a page for this guy because he actively admits to using his lol edgelord meme shitposter persona as a way to 'red pill' his audience on topics like The Jewish Question."

Not opposed to a simple cleanup of the page but also not opposed to just deleting it.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1645: Nov 4th 2021 at 9:09:51 PM

[up] Yeah, see, that is where I raise an eyebrow at this guy more than even Crowder.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#1646: Nov 4th 2021 at 10:22:37 PM

i confess i didn't realize it was that extreme, and concede the point. i certainly don't want to die on the hill of "but actual nazis deserve tgeir voices heard too" because they fucking don't.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#1647: Nov 4th 2021 at 10:34:23 PM

This is admittedly small potatoes compared to stuff like that, but this bit in particular caught my eye:

His videos are written and purposed to dress down their subject matter as cuttingly and abrasively as possible, re-framing them as the worst of the worst in scripted entertainment in brutal contrast to the penchant of popular journalism and fandom to glowingly pedestal them as the greatest.

While the part about the tone of his videos could be considered an objective description (though I won't lie that I'm kind of getting "Isn't that awesome?!" vibes from it), the bit about "the penchant of popular journalism and fandom to glowingly pedestal them as the greatest" is essentially taking his view of the matter as fact. Honestly, I've seen plenty of fandom criticism of all three examples cited, particularly the Sequel Trilogy.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Nov 5th 2021 at 11:11:02 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1648: Nov 5th 2021 at 3:29:12 AM

Yeah, like I said, if the page is kept then it needs heavy rewriting, because the tone on some of this stuff is downright dishonest.

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#1649: Nov 5th 2021 at 7:22:35 AM

When you put it like how Elmo 3000 does, that IS a very strong argument in favor of cutting. Giving that piece of shit a page is just drawing more attention towards his stealth nazi propaganda.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#1650: Nov 5th 2021 at 7:26:26 AM

[up] I wonder if this is another stonetoss situation, where they're too dishonest to have a page, unlike people who are open about it so we can say "This creator is a fucking Nazi"

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA

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