Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment - Violations, misuse, and other issues

Done.

Edited by SebastianGray on Nov 18th 2020 at 9:11:52 AM

Are we sure axing one sentence out of that part of the Cyberpunk page is enough? The paragraph has a very blatant political slant it’s pushing and lot of the stuff in it is painfully subjective and divisive. I was gonna delete it until I saw this thread was up.

Mightynewtron did say that the example was valid, though looking at it again it may need to be rewritten, as it's taken an overtly negative Trump stance.

As a compromise, how about we leave the basic gist of the new paragraph there, but I rewrite it to be more generic/less inflammatory? Like make it so it doesn’t mention specific modern events like COVID and BLM? Just say cyberpunk saw a popularity resurgence thanks to the issues it tackled resurfacing and leave it at that.

Edited by chopshop on Nov 18th 2020 at 3:36:49 AM

Punk has an inherently political slant, and I believe cyberpunk does as well. Acknowledging that isn't bad, but we should keep that bit non-specific and just note the resurgence of the genre in America in light of heightened political tension.

Then it sounds like we’re all in agreement here, so I’ll rewrite it a bit.

Ben Shapiro is attracting some agenda-based editing. Perhaps inevitable with a polarizing pundit, but I think it goes a bit far when you slip in inflammatory stuff like "he's a racist, sexist, homophobic bigot" on the YMMV page as if it were objective fact and rewrite the laconic to say "he's usually wrong".

Edited by Morgenthaler on Nov 23rd 2020 at 4:08:35 AM

Honestly, I question if anything he’s produced is the kind of creative work that warrants a page.

Perhaps, but if we were to go down that route we should at least be consistent. We have pages on political commentators varying from Glenn Beck to Keith Olbermann. Do their programs qualify as creative media? Probably. Are their pages more trouble than they are worth? That's an open question.

Edited by Morgenthaler on Nov 23rd 2020 at 4:20:36 AM

I'd be quite happy to see all political pundits go, unless they also produce something that falls under the banner of "fiction" (like literature or comedy). They add nothing to a wiki whose purpose is documenting tropes in fiction, and when they attract drama, they actively cause problems.

I know for a fact Ben Shapiro has written fiction, but honestly we can probably cut his page for being a controversy magnet. Same with the others. Though to be fair Olbermann and Beck have not been relevant in years as a politics guy myself, so there would most likely be less arguing on their pages (maybe Beck because I think his news group is still around.)

At least cut his YMMV page.

Well, he is. If a political pundit has a YMMV page, it's going to attract controversy. Especially if they are pretty much objectively a racist, sexist, homophobic bigot.

Is it wrong for this wiki to call out racist, sexist, homophobic bigots when they’re pretty much in plain sight?

I'm not interested in a Flame War, Lighty. You can take whatever highly ideological and inflammatory stances you'd like under the pretense of moral objectivity.

The issue on the table right now is whether it's worth having these type of pages because of the mudslinging they attract, not whether they conform to anybody's personal beliefs.

If you honestly have to ask that question, I'd suggest you read Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment first. It's not our job to lecture people.

Edited by Morgenthaler on Nov 23rd 2020 at 10:24:53 AM

So I found Bryan Fischer. Is their any reason we need a page to a right wing fundamentlist nutjob when the entirety of the thing is bashing him (not saying the bashing of his shitty beliefs is wrong but it seems weird to have a page on something like this without a narrative and will clearly inflame people).

From a look at his page, his material isn't "creative" in the sense we use to refer to works with tropes deliberately used anyway.

Yes, that's my point: it's probably for the best not having the YMMV page, because Ben "Arabs like to live in sewage and trans people are mentally ill" Shapiro is just going to be a magnet for inflammatory statements, even if all they do is accurately describe him.

You can get that point across without sneering insults and implicitly goading me to debunk them. I'm not interested. And I'm not even a steadfast supporter of the guy. I find his Holier Than Thou personality to be unpleasant.

Edited by Morgenthaler on Nov 23rd 2020 at 10:21:23 AM

If you're taking this as insults, it's not intended towards you. I'm not going to pretend a guy who called a transwoman "sir" repeatedly to her face for the sole purpose of being insulting isn't a bigot, though.

If the YMMV causes problems, then cut it, but as long as total creeps have those, people are going to use them to discuss real life controversies. In Shapiro's case, this seems to be a case of "does accurately describing him/his views sound insulting?"

Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 23rd 2020 at 8:33:23 AM

This is reminding me of the Stonetoss garbage all over again. If all we have to talk about are his political opinions, and those opinions are so heated that we cannot discuss them neutrally, then the safest option is to cut the page. Luckily we probably won't attract attention from him or his followers, though, so it might not need to be PRLC'd.

As I said: the YMMV can probably be cut if it's adding nothing. Unlike Stonetoss, Shapiro has some functions outside Nazi propaganda.

All things considered, until now YMMV.Ben Shapiro actually looks pretty even-handed towards his detractors and supporters, describing him as both a Memetic Badass and a Memetic Loser. But if it's just going to incite flaming and theological arguments disguised as political ones, cut the entire thing.

Just sent a notifier to the editor.

Edited by Morgenthaler on Nov 23rd 2020 at 9:02:56 AM

I should mention that the Memetic Badass/Memetic Loser example is wrongly formatted. You're supposed to have one trope per bullet point, not two.

So anyone else want to comment on why we have a page to Bryan Fischer ?