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So in this case it would be fair to say that the AH forum RP may be technically accessible, but wasn't made with an audience in mind, and so excludes outsiders?
Works for me.
I understand your reasoning, but at the same time I can't help but find it inherently absurd to say that posting to a forum with 50'000 members means you're not doing so with the intention of having that work digested by an audience.
To use another example from the same website- Literature.Arose From Out The Azure Main is a story on the site written by one person. Half a dozen tropers have contributed to the page, none of which have the same username as said author. There's nearly 4000 inbounds and it has a "potential" audience of 50'000 (at least 50 of which are tropers, according to our AH page). Can we really say at that point that the work doesn't have an audience that are troping it, and it's instead a case of auto-erotic troping from the author of the work who never intended for it to have an audience?
Edited by whizzerd on Oct 1st 2019 at 8:49:16 PM
It's still private, since it's behind a login-wall with administrative approval. Now, the fact that there are some tropers among those members is interesting but doesn't change the fact that they are arbitrarily walling it off against the general public, who are presumably too icky to be allowed to see their work.
As a shared work contributed to by many people, it isn't even published, strictly speaking, since there's no final version, no editing or proofreading. It's more like a shared stream of consciousness. (I generalize; maybe someone does edit it.) A Darth Wiki article might be appropriate, if there is an intent to release a finished product at some point.
Put more simply, if you want it to be troped, make it publicly viewable or put it up for commercial sale.
Edited by Fighteer on Oct 1st 2019 at 3:55:07 PM
The unnecessary hostility is not helping your point.
I'm also looking at this from a practical standpoint; we have a good 150+ work pages for AH.com content, and that's only the ones that are listed on our page for the site. From a quick check, most of them have a decent amount of inbounds and multiple tropers contributing to the pages. It's gonna leave us with a hefty workload to move them all to Darth or cut them, we're gonna lose a lot of content and a fair amount of traffic in the process, and I can't see this going over well either with the people at AH.com and/or the tropers on this site, and it'd all be because viewing said works requires a ten-second sign-up.
It isn't like the pages that we've been cutting/moving to Darth thus far, which are either literally unavailable or of too poor content. The works are there, they have an audience and are generating traffic, and multiple tropers are interested in working on their pages.
Again, I could completely understand if this was some niche website with twenty members that are clearly only interested in troping their own work, but AH.com is substantially larger than that.
No such thing as notability, remember? A standard applied to one work should apply to all of them. That said, since there is a large number of tropers participating in creating that content and removing it would cause a lot of upset, I'm fine with putting it off and concentrating on smaller works. Those articles still need to adhere to our other standards, though.
Edited to add: It wouldn't be that much trouble, I presume, to make those forums readable by anyone but only allow posting for logged-in users. Then we wouldn't be having this issue. So what is the purpose of the privacy, other than to prevent people from seeing the content?
Edited by Fighteer on Oct 1st 2019 at 4:52:28 AM
If we can publicly read it, it's fine. Posting being restricted makes sense too.
But if it's private on a forum, it doesn't make sense to force one or more users to register to verify anything. That's way too private and exclusive. I agree with moving those to Darth Wiki overall.
I also don't think Fighteer is being hostile at all. He's being realistic and fair. There's a lot of reasons for things being private. I've been in private roleplays that are mature and for that reason alone, isn't outright public. Same with specific chats/Discords. There's reasons for that. Even one of my most favorite character designs is for an adult roleplay(albeit, the character herself is rather SFW, admittedly, but other characters often are not, and that's kind of an important thing to trope). And that's just one example.
Whatever reason it is private isn't really our business. They chose to make it inaccessible without registering. That's effectively unreasonable to trope. It is not public, a pretty clear rule for verifiable works. Besides that, as shown by other examples, it's super easy to verify various other books/shows/movies quite easily. Well, once they're fully public(since we don't trope leaks as is).
But fair enough if we should wait. I do think Darth Wiki is a perfectly fair place to put those though. It's a simple cleanup that makes sure they still adhere to basic standards. But if not moving, the standards would still apply anyway. And we've got some bad pages. ._.;
Edited by Irene on Oct 1st 2019 at 3:47:07 AM
My opinion is that each roleplay be judged on a case-by-case basis. The AH example is one case of an exception to the rule, for one.
Also, I believe registration and/or payment to see these works should not be a factor, as long as it's not otherwise discriminating. Again, this requires a detailed look for each work on its own merits.
I agree that I think a case-by-case basis would work best. Again, I re-iterate my previous point that 50'000 just seems like a lot of people to classify as a 'private' audience. I actually signed up for AH.com a while ago to confirm a roleplay's existence, and it was far easier, quicker, and cheaper to do that than buy a 10-book series and make a trope page for it that currently has less inbounds than half of the works we're talking about
But anyway, I'm more than happy to agree to that compromise. In the meantime I can message some of the tropers who frequent the site and let them know of the issue.
Case-by-case seems best to me as well. We have to keep in mind that for our purposes, "public" means verifiable by anyone besides the creator, with enough content available for people interested. For most works, having a payment wall is just part of life, though I guess on the internet people can more-or-less decide to be public or be private in a way that allows either everybody to see it, or only allows certain people to see it.
When it comes to AH, I can say it blurs the line a bit, but while it may not be entirely "public", the content is entirely accessible to people who aren't the creators, with the only barrier being an account on the forum. Irritating and not really what I'd consider public, but also not something I'd consider private.
An RP on the TV Tropes forums is visible to the entire public, no login required at all. You only need to be registered to contribute. It's a worthwhile difference.
Edited by Fighteer on Oct 1st 2019 at 9:56:53 AM
I understand, but at the same time that means things like YouTube Red shows aren't tropeworthy since you need a YouTube account to watch them, which doesn't seem right. I mean, I do get what you're saying, but I also get what Whizzerd is saying.
Youtube is more comparable to something like a basic cable description. Or even something like Hulu Plus. It's just a normal thing. Besides that, roleplays are also a lot different from regular works and rarely made for the public at large. So they do have a different design as is. They're made for the players alone. If they're private, then it's far harder for the public to verify them, even from some kind of offsite "illegal" viewing. How often are you going to see these on a mirror site or a wayback machine if they're private? Rarely. If ever. They're just a completely different situation.
It doesn't mean we can't take it case by case. It doesn't mean we have to remove them despite the difference. We can still keep them up as is regardless. It's just the comparisons really don't work overall. They're too different, well, in multiple ways.
I wouldn't call YouTube similar to a cable subscription because most content there is free regardless of accounts and what not. I'm just saying that excluding things like AH Roleplays because they need accounts would be similar to excluding YouTube Red series for the same reason. The only difference is who they're made for, but if we went with that and that alone, we'd have no RP pages at all since RP's are almost never made with an audience in mind.
Again, the difference is that a video on Youtube Premium is intended for public consumption, regardless of the fact that you need to pay or subscribe. An RP on a private forum is intended just for its players and possibly a small audience. The reason for a login wall is to prevent people from being able to view it, not to generate revenue.
Intent also matters. If your RP is not meant to be published for an audience, then it shouldn't have a TV Tropes article.
What RP is intended for an audience, though? Out of all the ones we've looked at thus far, I'd say only a handful were produced in a format intended for audience consumption. The rest are...well...just more easily accessible. That doesn't make them any more intended for outside readers, just makes it easier for outsiders to read it.
That's why I don't think this is a good standard to go by, or else we'd move 95% of these work pages to Darth.
Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 1st 2019 at 10:34:18 AM
Youtube is pretty much identical to full Cable. You can't really get much at all these days without paying. Youtube just doesn't require a payment service. But they're effectively identical. Some services are not available(including channels) unless you have the "full package".
The fact one is made for public is definitely a key factor, though. Notability only refers to works that we won't remove simply because they are shitty. We should be able to properly trope and verify. If somebody already is part of the site, that's great. But if nobody is, moving it to Darth Wiki till someone is willing to participate in the site is a reasonable compromise due to it being impossible to verify(and thus, making it untropeable).
TV Tropes is about published works. That is, works put forth into the media landscape by their authors with the intent of being available to consume by the public, or at least whatever portion of the public is willing to pay to access them.
A work that is not intended for publication falls outside the natural scope of our wiki. A private RP, conducted between its players with no expectation of an audience and not compiled or streamed or otherwise made into an easily consumed format, whether during or after the fact, is completely outside that scope.
The fact that people have been violating this principle for years is germane only in that it means we're going to annoy them now that we're enforcing it. I offer a great big shrug to that one.
Verifiability is a component of publication, in that it is much harder to verify the content of an unpublished work or one that is private.
Edited by Fighteer on Oct 1st 2019 at 10:48:35 AM
I feel like this discussion needs more voices, as I think it's moved beyond the scope of this thread. Should we move to Wiki Talk?
Not really. The debate was held already, quite a while ago. It's naturally going to sweep up more people as the cleanup expands and they get pissed off that their articles are being removed or altered, but that's unavoidable. It doesn't mean we're going to redo the debate every time someone wants to contest it.
Right, but there's never been a real consensus on whether or not these works should be troped. We had a major debate here months ago over it, the dust settled, we agreed to just clean up the pages for the time being...and now here we are.
The thing is, people have different ideas of what is and isn't considered a published work. Many users in this discussion disagreed with the idea that roleplays are inherently private works.
Nobody said they are inherently private. A roleplay can easily be developed and conducted with an audience in mind. Most, however, are not, and the result is that the participants want to trope their game as if it were a published work and frequently do a bad job of it.
It sounds like you're asking for special treatment that wouldn't be given to other works under our general standards. Again, to qualify for a TV Tropes article, a work should be:
Edited by Fighteer on Oct 1st 2019 at 11:08:48 AM
I'm not asking for special treatment, just proper consensus and discussion with more than 4-5 people involved. The fact remains though that we've been operating this thread under the idea that RPs must have verifiable information- not about whether or not the works are intended for an audience. Roleplays are almost never meant for outside eyes, but that doesn't mean the content isn't able to be verified in most cases.
The Alternate History debacle is one of the few times I think there should be an exception to a rule, but that rule is about whether or not the work can be verified by literally anybody and their mother, not about whether or not it's made for an audience.
All I'm saying is that, if we decide that from now on we can only keep pages for RPs made with an audience in mind, we may as well just burn the whole namespace to the ground. And if everyone agrees that, yes, only RPs made for an outside audience can be troped, fine. I won't complain about that. But there's been no genuine agreement on this point, just unresolved debate.
Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 1st 2019 at 11:16:53 AM
Fighteer's talking nothing that extreme.
We just are unable to properly trope non-public ones. That's all there is to it. It's not like they can't go to Darth Wiki and still do a pretty good job of being troped.
I don't see a point in an all-or-nothing stance either. That doesn't help anything. There's tons of roleplays that are basically published works, by being completely available to the public to read. That's the ones that are easy to trope. Many are private and impossible for the average person to actually read, and thus, they cannot trope nor read it. Those make sense to move to Darth Wiki in general since we aren't saying they don't exist. We just really have no way of verifying them publicly.
Fighteer is using a different meaning of "public", though. While we've been treating RPs as "public" if their content is available, as you said, he's talking about creator intent...and roleplays are almost never intended for people to read them, even if their content is publicly available. Almost none of them are "released to the public", they just exist and can be read by those who find it. They aren't published in a format made for an audience, unlike every other work we trope.
That's my concern. While I'd agree that a roleplay is tropeable if the content is available, that doesn't make the roleplay a published or public work- just a work that isn't completely hidden from outsiders. There's a big difference, and one definition basically means 95% of works in this namespace aren't tropeworthy.
I know nobody here is actually talking about cutting the entire namespace. I'm just scared that if we go with Fighteer's definition of what a tropeable work is, then we'll have to get rid of most roleplays regardless of what content is available. That's all.
Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 1st 2019 at 11:56:27 AM
They're definitely published to be public in many cases. Intent is all well and good, but there's really no point in taking an all-or-nothing approach when we clearly see they're publicly consumable. Which is why the namespace isn't an issue in itself. They're absolutely published works... in many many cases.
The ones that are publicly consumable are effectively no different from fanfiction, it's just being done by multiple people. There are tangible differences, obviously, but overall it's still just another work of fiction. Not every single work of fiction is possible for us to verify, which is why it goes to Darth Wiki. It's easy to treat them as every other regular work(which it's still a work).
What it's more is that by being behind a paywall where you must absolutely join, those are the actual cases where they are not intended to be publicly viewable. Ones on TVT and many other places don't require any of those things, and are by default intended to be publicly viewable as is. It's a literal thing. The fact they do not make messages impossible to view unless registered means they intend it to be seeable by the public.
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