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Ambiguous Name: Elemental Rock Paper Scissors

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ArsThaumaturgis Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Oct 20th 2019 at 10:16:14 AM

Any specific reversions?

Frustratingly, the way that the edit-history seems to work makes it a little hard to compare across multiple revisions. (Presuming that I'm not missing a feature.) If a given revision indicates one change, then I have to check subsequent revisions for later changes to that area. Conversely, a change in a given revision only tells me how it compares to the previous revision, not to the specific revision that I want to look at.

However, I intend to try a little later to do so; it may take a bit of time, so bear with me!

(If I could just get the text from the revision on October 15th, I could put that into a diff tool with the current revision and see how they differ...)

I do think that the paragraph that begins with "Elements are almost always immune or resistant to themselves" might be better-placed in the proposed super-trope about elemental interactions. After all, an element connecting to itself doesn't really fit the pattern of this trope.

I've combined several paragraphs as I've thought they're connected to each other. Otherwise, they'll be one sentence per paragraph.

I don't see a major problem with that, as long as there's one idea per paragraph.

It might make for slightly uneven pacing, but better than combining multiple ideas into a single paragraph, I feel.

(Unless there were places in which I had the same idea split across multiple paragraphs, in which case combining them may well be better!)

I've removed it as I though it's unnecessary, but maybe we can add it back once we've launch the missing supertrope.

I mean, it doesn't seem much less necessary to me than the other related tropes.

It's basically saying that there are some systems in which "Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors" isn't always used, and that in those cases, the use of "Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors" is a case of "Situational Damage Attack."

[edit]
On reflection, I think that you're right about this line: we don't need to list every possible way in which the trope can be used. Cutting it leave the description more elegant—less muddied by superfluous details.
[/edit]

Before my edit, the last paragraph is made up of just one sentence:

That was intentional, to give it a bit more impact. ^^;

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Oct 20th 2019 at 7:57:46 PM

Night River: A Short, Simple, Spooky Experience. (Okaywithsomebadaudiosorry. T-T)
ArsThaumaturgis Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Oct 20th 2019 at 5:48:05 PM

All right, specific reversions, separated by "~"s for (hopefully) easier navigation. Where there's a previous form that I'd like to revert to, I give the current form first, followed by the older form to which I'd like to revert.

(And I stand for argument on these, of course!)

~

I'd like to revert:

In the case of this trope, however, quite the opposite is true: if you know what elemental associations a character has, you know which elemental skills to use to deal the most damage. This is because, under Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors, the elements are arranged in a pattern of fixed relationships to each other: Element A beats element B; element B beats element C; and so on.

back to:

In the case of this trope, however, quite the opposite is true: if you know what elemental associations a character has, you know which elemental skills to use to deal the most damage.

This is because, under Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors, the elements are arranged in a pattern of fixed relationships to each other: Element A beats element B; element B beats element C; and so on.


While I agree that the preceding paragraph is perhaps better joined, I feel that this one works a bit better split up: It places the fundamental description of "Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors" on its own, easily caught by the eye, and perhaps more-easily digested without other information around it.

~

I'd like to revert:
The core idea here is that, given elements as rps items, you can reliably say what "defeats" and/or "defeated by" what.

back to:
The core idea here is that, given an element, you can reliably say which elements it "defeats" and which it's "defeated by".

~

In the same place, I'd like to reinstate the paragraph break, so that it goes from this:
[preceding text here] The core idea here is that, given elements as rps items, you can reliably say what "defeats" and/or "defeated by" what. That said, cyclical patterns are not uncommon—likely because a cycle instates a degree of balance, with no one element being "the best".

to this:
[preceding text here] The core idea here is that, given an element, you can reliably say which elements it "defeats" and which it's "defeated by".

That said, cyclical patterns are not uncommon—likely because a cycle instates a degree of balance, with no one element being "the best".

~

There are also two removed lines that I'd like to re-instate:

and
The hierarchy of elements usual rules can vary under the influence of a Field Power Effect.

(Unless the latter is too specific an interaction, as with "Situational Damage Attack"?)

~

Regarding this line:
Rules established can be changed further either side, through Scissors Cuts Rock, Barrier Change Boss and Kryptonite-Proof Suit.

I like the idea of consolidating the various ways in which the relationships between elements can be changed, but I would argue that—if I'm understanding the trope correctly—a "Barrier Change Boss" doesn't really change the relationships—it just changes its elemental association. Similarly, a "Kryptonite-Proof Suit" is less a change of relationships than armour of a sort.

~

Regarding this line:
Contrast Elemental Tiers, where one element is intended to be dominate above all others.

I honestly don't recall what the thread's consensus was on the matter. I know that I see "Elemental Tiers" to be a specific sub-trope of "Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors"—it's a simple form of non-cyclic "Rock-Paper-Scissors"—but I don't recall whether the thread at large agreed with me on that.

~

And finally, as mentioned in a previous post (included here so that it's not missed), I'd like to remove the paragraph that starts with "Elements are almost always immune".

(I do think that mention of "Non-Elemental" effects might be worth mentioning somewhere; perhaps the matter could be given a short paragraph to itself?)
~

Whew! And that's it, I believe! ^^;

Night River: A Short, Simple, Spooky Experience. (Okaywithsomebadaudiosorry. T-T)
Oct 23rd 2019 at 8:49:00 AM

I'll try my best to reply to all your points

~

I'd like to revert: (...)

back to(...)

While I agree that the preceding paragraph is perhaps better joined, I feel that this one works a bit better split up: It places the fundamental description of "Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors" on its own, easily caught by the eye, and perhaps more-easily digested without other information around it.

I guess that could work, though I worry more on how splitting the paragraph could lengthen the page.

~

The core idea here is that, given an element, you can reliably say which elements it "defeats" and which it's "defeated by".

You can revert this one back if you find it better.

~

In the same place, I'd like to reinstate the paragraph break, so that it goes (...)
Similar to your first point, I wouldn't like to lengthen the page, though splitting all the previously fused paragraphy back could make the page more consistent. Other than that, though, I don't have anything more to add.

~

There are also two removed lines that I'd like to re-instate: (...)

I find "Beware the Infinity +1 Element." too short to be worthy of a paragraph, so maybe we can expand it further first.

As for the Field Power Effect, I removed it as terrain effects do not directly influence an enemy's elemental weaknesses/resistances.

~

(...) I like the idea of consolidating the various ways in which the relationships between elements can be changed, but I would argue that—if I'm understanding the trope correctly—a "Barrier Change Boss" doesn't really change the relationships—it just changes its elemental association. Similarly, a "Kryptonite-Proof Suit" is less a change of relationships than armour of a sort.
Fair enough. I though "Barrier Change Boss" counts as it changes the ruleset by changing its own element. Maybe I need a better choice of words. Maybe by saying "Rules established can be maneuvered around by either side(...)"?

~

(...) I honestly don't recall what the thread's consensus was on the matter. I know that I see "Elemental Tiers" to be a specific sub-trope of "Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors"—it's a simple form of non-cyclic "Rock-Paper-Scissors"—but I don't recall whether the thread at large agreed with me on that.
I though "Elemental Tiers" is to be contrasted because "Elemental Tiers" deliberately makes one element stronger than the other, while Elemental rps keeps all elements on equal level.

~

And finally, as mentioned in a previous post (included here so that it's not missed), I'd like to remove the paragraph that starts with "Elements are almost always immune".

(I do think that mention of "Non-Elemental" effects might be worth mentioning somewhere; perhaps the matter could be given a short paragraph to itself?)

Thinking back, I don't think there are any examples that have an element to be immune to itself; this only to works where character aren't assigned to elemental power. Therefore, it isn't a good point to add in to begin with.

~

I still prefer the page to be kept short as possible, though I would like to hear a third party whether the paragraph breaks from points 1 and 3 should be re-instated.

Edited by Kindle4Light on Oct 23rd 2019 at 11:52:31 PM

ArsThaumaturgis Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Oct 23rd 2019 at 10:42:43 AM

I guess that could work, though I worry more on how splitting the paragraph could lengthen the page.
Similar to your first point, I wouldn't like to lengthen the page, though splitting all the previously fused paragraphy back could make the page more consistent. Other than that, though, I don't have anything more to add.

I do likewise want to keep the article short—but not at the cost of reducing readability or comprehension.

You can revert this one back if you find it better.

Thank you; I'll do that shortly then, I intend. ^_^

I find "Beware the Infinity +1 Element." too short to be worthy of a paragraph, so maybe we can expand it further first.

My intention was less that it be a full paragraph than that it be a sort of minor "Wham-Line"; a final line that leaves an impact through the blunt mention of an element that can significantly disrupt the stability of the "Rock Paper Scissors" tactics.

Expanding on the line would lessen that impact, I think.

As for the Field Power Effect, I removed it as terrain effects do not directly influence an enemy's elemental weaknesses/resistances.

The thing is that they could: one could potentially have a "Field Power Effect" that reshuffles or reverses the hierarchy, for example.

However, if there are no such examples, then I'm happy to leave it out. I think that I may have taken it from the original form of the page, and may have misinterpreted its inclusion there.

Fair enough. I though "Barrier Change Boss" counts as it changes the ruleset by changing its own element. Maybe I need a better choice of words. Maybe by saying "Rules established can be maneuvered around by either side(...)"?

Is there any reason that they should be all kept in a single sentence? Each seems fairly distinct to me. They needn't be long sentences—I think that in that "see also" section of the trope-description it's likely fine to have a series of brief sentences.

I though "Elemental Tiers" is to be contrasted because "Elemental Tiers" deliberately makes one element stronger than the other, while Elemental rps keeps all elements on equal level.

I would argue that they're only on an equal level if they're part of a cycle. If they're part of a non-cyclic chain, then, given an element A that beats an element B, it can be argued that element A is better than element B.

In addition, even within a cycle, if we look at individual pairs of elements one could argue that an element that beats another is "stronger" than that other.

Thinking back, I don't think there are any examples that have an element to be immune to itself; this only to works where character aren't assigned to elemental power. Therefore, it isn't a good point to add in to begin with.

Fair enough—I'll remove that paragraph presently then, I intend.

I still prefer the page to be kept short as possible, though I would like to hear a third party whether the paragraph breaks from points 1 and 3 should be re-instated.

That's fair; I'll leave those points until someone else has weighed in on the matter, I intend!

[edit] I've made those two edits.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Oct 23rd 2019 at 7:45:16 PM

Night River: A Short, Simple, Spooky Experience. (Okaywithsomebadaudiosorry. T-T)
Oct 28th 2019 at 8:29:11 PM

I do likewise want to keep the article short—but not at the cost of reducing readability or comprehension.
Fair enough. Now that I've read it another time, it's harder to read a paragraph that's five lines cluttered. You can split them back.
My intention was less that it be a full paragraph than that it be a sort of minor "Wham-Line"; a final line that leaves an impact through the blunt mention of an element that can significantly disrupt the stability of the "Rock Paper Scissors" tactics.

Expanding on the line would lessen that impact, I think.

I see. I'm not sure whether this would work, so maybe you could ask another troper whether it's a good idea?
Is there any reason that they should be all kept in a single sentence? Each seems fairly distinct to me. They needn't be long sentences—I think that in that "see also" section of the trope-description it's likely fine to have a series of brief sentences.
Now that you mention it, Barrier Change Boss indeed works differently from Scissors Cuts Rock and Kryptonite-Proof Suit. While the latter two changes the rules altogether, Barrier Change Boss only changes its own properties.
I would argue that they're only on an equal level if they're part of a cycle. If they're part of a non-cyclic chain, then, given an element A that beats an element B, it can be argued that element A is better than element B.

In addition, even within a cycle, if we look at individual pairs of elements one could argue that an element that beats another is "stronger" than that other.

Then I guess Elemental Tiers is to been seen also? Or say that would be the result of this trope not being kept in balance?
With the above two issues, I would like to revise the the last paragraph as I have an idea on how to fix them.
And finally, I have hollered about this crowner's result.

Edited by Kindle4Light on Oct 28th 2019 at 11:31:04 PM

ArsThaumaturgis Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Oct 30th 2019 at 10:42:18 AM

Fair enough. Now that I've read it another time, it's harder to read a paragraph that's five lines cluttered. You can split them back.

Good good, and thank you! ^_^ (But see my final response!)

I see. I'm not sure whether this would work, so maybe you could ask another troper whether it's a good idea?

You know what, I suppose that it's not exactly and important point. Why don't we split the difference, and simply include it as the last sentence of that final "see also" paragraph?

While the latter two changes the rules altogether ...

I would argue that "Scissors Cuts Rock" is less a change of the rules, than an external rule overriding the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" relationship. Technically, the "Scissors" are still ranked below the "Rock", but in this specific case the former just has so much raw power that it overcomes that relationship. In a sense it's a subversion of the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" relationship.

I would say much the same for the "Kryptonite-Proof Suit": It's less a change the rules—the relationship between elements still holds—than a shield against them.

... All that said, it occurs to me that these tropes might fit better in the article on standard "Tactical Rock-Paper-Scissors" than in this more-specific trope.

Then I guess Elemental Tiers is to been seen also?

I think that this is what I was indeed arguing. ^^;

With the above two issues, I would like to revise the the last paragraph as I have an idea on how to fix them.

Fair enough—but see my next reply!

And finally, I have hollered about this crowner's result.

Ah, fair enough! In that case, why don't we leave these changes on the table until a mod either calls the crowner or indicates that more time is to be given for voting. If the crowner is called, we can swap in the sandbox and then treat it as a normal wiki-page in terms of editing. If more time is given, we can keep discussing and editing.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Oct 30th 2019 at 7:48:47 PM

Night River: A Short, Simple, Spooky Experience. (Okaywithsomebadaudiosorry. T-T)
Oct 31st 2019 at 9:10:18 AM

^ Yeah, I guess it's for the best, or we'll complicate what other tropes really want when it comes to changing the trope description into which options.

GastonRabbit Not a turkey from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Not a turkey
Nov 1st 2019 at 7:09:00 AM

The top crowner option is unanimous at ten yeas. Is it safe to call?

How many nuns could nunchucks chuck if nunchucks could chuck nuns?
ArsThaumaturgis Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Nov 1st 2019 at 8:05:11 AM

I believe that a mod has been hollered for the purpose of deciding it. (Although we can always poke the mods again if it comes to seem that the first holler may have been missed or forgotten.)

Night River: A Short, Simple, Spooky Experience. (Okaywithsomebadaudiosorry. T-T)
ArsThaumaturgis Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Nov 5th 2019 at 6:09:57 AM

Hollering for a mod to weigh in on the status of the crowner...

[edit] And hollered.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Nov 5th 2019 at 7:30:25 PM

Night River: A Short, Simple, Spooky Experience. (Okaywithsomebadaudiosorry. T-T)
Nov 8th 2019 at 8:57:49 PM

I've re-hollered it again.

Willbyr Anime-ted from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
ArsThaumaturgis Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Nov 9th 2019 at 5:52:19 AM

[up] Great, and thank you! ^_^

All right, with the crowner closed, it looks like we're swapping in Sandbox 1, as linked in the crowner.

I take it that we just do that? Copy-paste the new version into an edit of the page, and then cut the "Analysis" section and paste it onto the "Analysis" page? I'm not experienced in this part of the process, I fear. ^^;

Night River: A Short, Simple, Spooky Experience. (Okaywithsomebadaudiosorry. T-T)
Nov 9th 2019 at 8:27:13 AM

I went ahead and edited the main page as well as added analysis page. I also put both sandboxes to the cut list.

What's left for me to do is to finish both articles in the analysis page. We may also want to take a look at Tactical Rock–Paper–Scissors whether it's cyclical, especially given the examples, but I'll leave it to the other tropers for now.

ArsThaumaturgis Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Nov 9th 2019 at 9:09:18 AM

Ah, thank you for doing that. And it's good to see the final result of this thread's work implemented on the page. ^_^

And you know what? I think that I'm going to leave my editing of the page there: let the wiki do its thing.

As to "Tactical Rock-Paper-Scissors", indeed, I've been thinking about that, and have been tempted to open a thread for it. I suspect that it will come as little surprise that I'm inclined to argue for similar flexibility there as I've argued for here.

Night River: A Short, Simple, Spooky Experience. (Okaywithsomebadaudiosorry. T-T)
Nov 10th 2019 at 4:55:00 AM

A few more thing we need to do:

ArsThaumaturgis Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Nov 12th 2019 at 9:16:27 AM

Ah, sorry for the delay in response! I missed your post at first, and then gave some time to thinking about how I wanted to deal with the matter.

I can start looking at the examples, I think—but there are an awful lot, and I'm not likely to give it more than a little time each day. As a result, my part of it is going to take some time, I fear. I'd appreciate help in doing this!

As to the launchpad entry, I've commented and thrown in a hat in favour of launching. ^_^

Night River: A Short, Simple, Spooky Experience. (Okaywithsomebadaudiosorry. T-T)
ArsThaumaturgis Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Nov 14th 2019 at 9:40:46 AM

All right, I've made a start:

  • I've cleaned up an example from the "Western Animation" section, part of which seemed to be describing something other than one element "beating" another.

  • The rest of that folder (including the remained of the cleaned example) looks fine to me, however.

  • Web Original looks fine, I think. I'm not entirely confident about the "Demon Thesis" entry, but from the description it looks like it's probably reasonable to include it.

  • From Webcomics I've removed the entries for "Triquetra Cats" and "Adventurers!"—they establish that elemental powers are available, but don't indicate a "rock-paper-scissors" relationship between those powers.

  • Similarly, I've removed the "Slightly Damned" entry, as the example doesn't provide much context, and the comic-link seems to have become broken.

  • I've slightly expanded the "Bob and George" entry to give it a little more context.

  • With the above changes, Webcomics is fine, I think.

  • In the Toys section, I'm not sure of whether the aversion example should be kept; I'm leaving it for now, given that doubt.

  • Otherwise, the Toys section looks fine.

  • Live-Action TV looks fine.

  • Fan Works looks fine, I think.

I'm dubious of the contents of the "Comic Books" folder; I wonder whether those wouldn't fall more under standard "Tactical Rock-Paper-Scissors" (or some other such trope) than this trope. Any thoughts?

Aside from the above-mentioned "Comic Books" folder, this leaves the following folders still to be done:
  • Anime and Manga
  • Literature
  • Tabletop Games
  • Video Games

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Nov 14th 2019 at 7:42:00 PM

Night River: A Short, Simple, Spooky Experience. (Okaywithsomebadaudiosorry. T-T)
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Page Action: Elemental Rock Paper Scissors Description
20th Oct '19 4:39:26 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
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