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Spider-Man: Far From Home (spoilers)

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Bocaj Funny, but not helpful from Here Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny, but not helpful
Oct 19th 2019 at 7:25:54 PM

I'll add that while Tony's Damage Control was Vulture's inciting incident, he stayed well away from actually antagonizing Tony. His motive was more to provide for his family and crew with a general 'well the rich will screw you over' vibe than specific anger at Tony.

My original fictions and Essential Avengers liveblog
slimcoder Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Oct 19th 2019 at 7:27:20 PM

Vulture's been at his operation for years & has never actually encountered Tony once.

Can you see all of me? Walk into my mystery. Do you remember me? Capture you or set you free I am all. I am all... I am all of me
Dirtyblue929 Armchair Developer from A Very Deep Hole Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Armchair Developer
Oct 19th 2019 at 7:32:03 PM

Yeah Vulture didn't really give a damn about Stark aside from the initial "lost my job to something he's associated with" bit

"Oh no, I'm not brave enough for politics."
alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
How dare you?
Oct 19th 2019 at 7:33:39 PM

I'd say both Vulture and Mysterio's inciting incident — the invitation to villainy, if you will — came from Tony Stark, but neither's motives had to do with Tony.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
slimcoder Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Oct 19th 2019 at 7:34:49 PM

Honestly Tony is just for world-building & set-up.

Cause Stark Industries is the only explicit super corp with all the fancy gadgets & tech, its easier to write super-villains as originating in some form from the only place that can logically produce such people.

Can you see all of me? Walk into my mystery. Do you remember me? Capture you or set you free I am all. I am all... I am all of me
dmcreif from Lewisburg, PA Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Oct 20th 2019 at 10:25:04 AM

One thing I've seen lately is that people who haven’t read any Spider-Man comics or either of the preceding film franchises think 616 Mary Jane Watson is a boring "I’m weird, I’m a weirdo" character and Ned Leeds is a soft comedy relief BFF because of the mess the MCU has created with their supporting characters.

Never underestimate your audience. They’re generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment.
Oct 20th 2019 at 10:37:46 AM

I think you are projecting a bit.

Bocaj Funny, but not helpful from Here Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny, but not helpful
Oct 20th 2019 at 10:48:43 AM

Comics Ned Leeds was no treat

And comics MJ has her own book now. She’s doing fine

My original fictions and Essential Avengers liveblog
amadeussyracuse A Wink's As Good As A Nod To A Blind Bat from Hyrule Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
A Wink's As Good As A Nod To A Blind Bat
Oct 20th 2019 at 11:22:08 AM

It would have been cool if Rick Steves could have had a cameo in Far From Home.

Of course that wouldn't make much sense since the school trip is supposed to represent a typical European vacation and the whole point of Rick Steves' PBS show is to visit places in Europe most tourists avoid.

No, Mr. Bunker, "this here" is justice
dmcreif from Lewisburg, PA Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Nov 2nd 2019 at 9:09:35 AM

Watts had admitted he's never read a single Spider-Man comic, and he said MJ's only personality trait was her hair colour, invalidating every other aspect of her character. How can you go from "I've never read a Spider-Man comic" to "one of the most complex and iconic spider-man characters is boring ‘cause i said so" when you haven’t even read about her?

Never underestimate your audience. They’re generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment.
alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
How dare you?
Nov 2nd 2019 at 9:25:50 AM

Watts had admitted he's never read a single Spider-Man comic, and he said MJ's only personality trait was her hair colour, invalidating every other aspect of her character.
I don't know where you read that, but he's certainly read Spider-Man comics since being hired to direct, you know, Spider-Man movies. Here he is talking about direct influences from the comics, including Ultimate Spider-Man and Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane. Here's an interview where he states he's been a Spider-Man fan since he was a kid:
I’ve been a Spider=Man fan since I was a kid. For me, I felt like he was the most relatable of all superheroes. He didn’t ask for any of this. All this sort of happens to him. He just had terrible luck. [Laughs] I think it’s something about that that just is so enduring and ingratiating that really draw me towards the character.
Here he is talking about all the comics he read:
Yeah, I read everything. It was really great, to go back and read the originals from the beginning, but then also reading all the variants and all the other places that Spider-Man has gone. All the different universes, and things like that. Because I had this luxury to be able to pick and choose what things I wanted to incorporate into the MCU version of Spider-Man.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Larkmarn Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Nov 4th 2019 at 11:03:18 AM

So... I saw the movie. And I really liked it. Better than Homecoming. Mysterio was great and it was fun watching it with my wife who doesn't know the character and was shocked with The Reveal.

That said... I'm thinking this movie needs an Idiot Plot entry.

  • On Tony's end: Entrusting EDITH to Peter isn't necessarily an idiotic move, but considering EDITH is apparently a dumb AI without so much as an instruction manual. Like... the suit was waaaaaaaaaaaay less dangerous and Karen was waaaaaaaaaaaay smarter. It's astoundingly dumb.
  • On Peter's end: He's manipulated into it, sure, but goddamn was giving EDITH to "guy you just met" without, like, doing anything to vet him is amazing. Also weird that EDITH didn't do a pop-up saying who Beck (or whatever his real name might have been, it almost assuredly wasn't Quentin Beck) was a former Stark employee considering it seems to do automatic pop-ups of people all the time, but that is more Tony than Peter.
    • Additionally, falling for the Berlin illusion, in particularly the Have You Told Anyone Else? thing is astoundingly dumb. Like... how. How did he not see through that, and in particular how did he not realize that it makes no sense for Fury to not realize that his office was an illusion? It's his damn office. Also, nitpick, but how did Peter not realize that he wasn't in an enclosed building? The air in an air-conditioned office building feels a lot different than the air outside.
  • Mysterio: Mostly the Bond Villain Stupidity. Also the Gambit Roulette that Peter would hand over EDITH but then again, can't blame him since it works.
    • Also, the underling leaving behind the projector was stupid. It genuinely didn't occur to the guy that "leaving behind evidence" is bad?!?
  • Fury: Honestly, I don't think I have to go too far into this because it's so bad that I suspect the whole Skrull reveal was done to justify Fury's idiocy. But at the end of the day, Talos' failures are Fury's for failing to prep him/find a decent replacement.
  • Talos: Buying Mysterio's schtick, hook, line, and sinker. Granted, Mysterio went full Refuge in Audacity but... surely there were holes in his story, or ways to confirm them. Or... literally anyone but Peter that he could call for help. Really, SHIELD being an Oddly Small Organization in this movie seems dumb and I think that has to be attributed to Talos.

Again, loved the movie. And technically none of these are even plotholes, but the movie really does seem to rely on some fantastically bad decisions from a lot of people.

Tuckerscreator from Traveling through the Multiverse Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Nov 4th 2019 at 11:08:36 AM

How did he not see through that, and in particular how did he not realize that it makes no sense for Fury to not realize that his office was an illusion? It's his damn office.

It's kinda hard to think about "how didn't Fury notice" when you're being confronted with fighting clones of yourself and your zombie mentor while trapped in a snowglobe made out of a guy's head.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Nov 4th 2019 at 11:10:23 AM

“If your good mood was ruined because you got into an accident with a car...”
Larkmarn Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Nov 4th 2019 at 11:10:22 AM

... god, I love that scene. But I meant in the beginning, where he's going "oh shit, Fury, it's an illusion! It's not real!" That's before all the Mind Rape.

Tuckerscreator from Traveling through the Multiverse Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Nov 4th 2019 at 11:15:46 AM

People in their own settings don't approach situations like a Cinema Sins video. Peter's first thoughts when he sees things disappearing is "WTF, oh no here comes a robot with guns", not "let me inspect Fury's very real looking corpse while these robots that can blow up a bus approach me". Even when Ned and MJ knew they were staring at an illusion at London, it was hard for them to not be afraid of it.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Nov 4th 2019 at 11:16:58 AM

“If your good mood was ruined because you got into an accident with a car...”
TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Nov 4th 2019 at 11:33:03 AM

On Tony's end: Entrusting EDITH to Peter isn't necessarily an idiotic move, but considering EDITH is apparently a dumb AI without so much as an instruction manual. Like... the suit was waaaaaaaaaaaay less dangerous and Karen was waaaaaaaaaaaay smarter. It's astoundingly dumb.

Yeah, that's easily the biggest WTF of the movie. Especially since it comes through Nick Fury. Because if there's anybody that Tony Stark would trust to ferry his dangerous super-weapons, it's Nick Goddamn Fury.

On Peter's end: He's manipulated into it, sure, but goddamn was giving EDITH to "guy you just met" without, like, doing anything to vet him is amazing. Also weird that EDITH didn't do a pop-up saying who Beck (or whatever his real name might have been, it almost assuredly wasn't Quentin Beck) was a former Stark employee considering it seems to do automatic pop-ups of people all the time, but that is more Tony than Peter.

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold, unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional reaction.

Peter Parker is a traumatized teenage boy who just watched Father Figure #3 die tragically and is consequentially ghosting on Nick Fury and, by extension, this whole Spider-Man thing. He's in a vulnerable state of mind right now, which makes him ripe for predation - particularly by a shiny new Father Figure #4. "Hi, I'm Tony Stark But Green! Nice to meet you, let me wow you with my awesomeness."

Additionally, falling for the Berlin illusion, in particularly the Have You Told Anyone Else? thing is astoundingly dumb. Like... how. How did he not see through that, and in particular how did he not realize that it makes no sense for Fury to not realize that his office was an illusion? It's his damn office. Also, nitpick, but how did Peter not realize that he wasn't in an enclosed building? The air in an air-conditioned office building feels a lot different than the air outside.

Gonna bring up my own Drake's Razor on that one too.

Mysterio's illusion is a master-class in manipulation. Why is it that a person, upon falling through the ice on a frozen lake, will try to pound against the ice above them rather than carefully and methodically searching for the hole they fell through? It's because people make bad choices when they panic.

Mysterio put Peter through a cascading landslide of WTF designed to keep him from knowing up from down. He attacked Peter physically and mentally. He even landed a solid shot right on Peter's Trauma Button. All to freak him out, then provide that instant relief of tension when "Fury" saves him.

Peter is not thinking, "Hmm. This person logically and reasonably behaves like Nick Fury and I see nothing wrong with this scenario." Peter is thinking, "OHSHIT OHSHIT OHSHIT THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU". After the nightmare trip he's just had, he is not in any condition to question the savior standing in front of him, and that's when Beck starts asking the questions that Peter would never have answered were he of sound mind.

Talos: Buying Mysterio's schtick, hook, line, and sinker. Granted, Mysterio went full Refuge in Audacity but... surely there were holes in his story, or ways to confirm them.

Ways to confirm what may or may not have happened in a parallel universe? I can't really think of any.

Or... literally anyone but Peter that he could call for help. Really, SHIELD being an Oddly Small Organization in this movie seems dumb and I think that has to be attributed to Talos.

S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't exist anymore. Except in the show, which has never been factored into the films and never will be. So, basically, S.H.I.E.L.D. still doesn't exist anymore.

Given this fact, I think it's entirely reasonable that the "Nick Fury and his underground crew of miscellaneous buddies who are not S.H.I.E.L.D." organization is not especially large or prominent.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 4th 2019 at 12:33:21 PM

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
Larkmarn Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Nov 4th 2019 at 11:56:14 AM

[up] But that SHIELD thing is particularly weird since I would assume Fury would take over Natasha's Avengers. If anything, there should be a network in place more suited to these kinds of threats since the "infrastructure" as it were already exists. Granted, it's a conceit to the format that Superman Stays Out of Gotham but it's still... weird.

Regarding Berlin: I mean, yeah. I don't blame him but considering someone in-universe calls his action idiotic (well, "gullible" but splitting hairs) I don't think that's really defensible.

Regarding checking his story: I dunno, facial recognition software, asking Dr. Strange, hell, touching him at any point, any sort of testing or vetting. I know he's got a Mining Accident On Troy backstory, but his front story can be verified and I would expect (a skrull imitating) the most paranoid man on the planet to do more than trust him.

TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Nov 4th 2019 at 12:07:43 PM

But that SHIELD thing is particularly weird since I would assume Fury would take over Natasha's Avengers. If anything, there should be a network in place more suited to these kinds of threats since the "infrastructure" as it were already exists. Granted, it's a conceit to the format that Superman Stays Out of Gotham but it's still... weird.

...why would you assume that? Fury wasn't even a member of the Avengers.

Logically, leadership would fall to one of the surviving members. Rhodey or Sam or Banner or someone. And that's if the Avengers even still exist after their headquarters was carpet-bombed to oblivion, all of their key leadership died or left, and their primary reason for existing was killed in a cosmic wave of catharsis.

The Avengers don't really have any reason to even be a thing anymore.

Regarding checking his story: I dunno, facial recognition software, asking Dr. Strange, hell, touching him at any point, any sort of testing or vetting. I know he's got a Mining Accident On Troy backstory, but his front story can be verified and I would expect (a skrull imitating) the most paranoid man on the planet to do more than trust him.

Facial recognition software needs to have a database of faces to match against. What database would Fury use? Keeping in mind that S.H.I.E.L.D. no longer exists and this is just Fury and some pals working out of a basement.

I mean, there's every possibility that they ran Beck's facial ID against an FBI database of wanted criminals and such. But they wouldn't have found anything doing that. It's unlikely that they'd go, "You know what? Let's cross-reference against Stark Industries employee ID files, just for a lark."

The facial recognition idea runs afoul of that whole "Fingerprinting can only ID you if your fingerprints have been put on file" thing. Quentin Beck has no reason to be in any criminal database, and Fury has no reason to psychically assume the correct database to check.

As for asking Dr. Strange, Fury doesn't even know Dr. Strange. Fury doesn't know anything about Dr. Strange. I'm not about to hold it against Fury that he didn't hunt down a magical wizard he's never met from a secret society he's never heard of and ask him to perform a magical background ID check.

Fury outright makes the point in this film that he's pretty much crippled compared to where he used to be. He's making the best out of what he has to work with.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 4th 2019 at 1:10:59 PM

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
Bocaj Funny, but not helpful from Here Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny, but not helpful
Nov 4th 2019 at 12:11:00 PM

Fury sometimes takes out a picture of Steve and yells at it for convincing him to burn down SHIELD

My original fictions and Essential Avengers liveblog
alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
How dare you?
Nov 4th 2019 at 12:49:30 PM

Fury outright makes the point in this film that he's pretty much crippled compared to where he used to be. He's making the best out of what he has to work with.
Also, to be fair, it's not Fury, it's Talos. And Talos is even less Genre Savvy than Fury is.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Nov 4th 2019 at 3:27:52 PM

I love Talos. He hits that Everyman, “knows he’s stuck in a situation too extraordinary for his pay grade but deals with it anyway” vibe that Coulson did.

So I’m kind of afraid he’s going to die at some point.

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Prowler Caw! Caw! Relationship Status: It's so nice to be turned on again
Caw! Caw!
Nov 4th 2019 at 4:03:17 PM

I liked Talos more in Captain Marvel. He seems a little stupider in Far From Home, to say nothing of the weirdness that is treating the entirely fallible and human Carol Danvers like God.

HandsomeRob High Priest of the Holey Brotherhood! from Holey Brotherhood Lair Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
High Priest of the Holey Brotherhood!
Nov 4th 2019 at 4:11:51 PM

[up]

I’m gonna cut Talos some slack.

Captain Marvel already showed us his impersonations are not perfect (Nicholas anyone?) so Jim not doing the background check on Beck is something I can buy.

He’s someone who likely knows the multiverse is entirely possible so his own expectations worked against him.

And finally, he’s likely so used to being the dude who fools people that it never occurred to him he could be fooled. He, ironically enough lacks the same paranoia that he’s been instilling in others for years.

Read this post for my theory
slimcoder Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Nov 4th 2019 at 4:17:31 PM

Talos has been working with Carol for the better part of over 2 decades.

Clearly he would develop a very high opinion of her.

Can you see all of me? Walk into my mystery. Do you remember me? Capture you or set you free I am all. I am all... I am all of me
Prowler Caw! Caw! Relationship Status: It's so nice to be turned on again
Caw! Caw!
Nov 4th 2019 at 4:18:21 PM

[up][up] This is fair.

[up] Yeah, well, "Do not invoke her name" still seems uncomfortably extreme for me.


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