Complete Monster Administrivia page discussion

Due to the amount of space the discussion on the Never Again list took up in the Complete Monster thread, all discussion on what changes to make on the Administrivia page for Complete Monster should now belong here.

Edit: Before you ask, we don't expand the Never Again list until a failed candidate has been brought up enough times.

Edited by FoxyGrandpa12 on Jun 29th 2019 at 5:42:59 AM

Here I am. I don't know if my proposals or ideas will be implemented, but I believe that if we do a few tweaks, we can improve the Administrivia section quite a bit. I'll start with my first suggestion:

I noticed that papyru30 has at one point established a template that can be used for Effort Posts. It can be found on their signature, which links to this post.

I feel that the template should be placed in the Administrivia section, and also replace this section:

• How does the process work?: Well, someone brings up a possible candidate and the work in which they appear. After initial appraisal, someone will make what we call an "effort post". This takes the form of a lengthy post describing the four important aspects of the nomination: the setting, to establish the general standard of heinousness; the character, to list what they do in the story; the motivation, so we can see why they do what they do and whether they have any redeeming traits; and a conclusion that summarizes the case for or against their inclusion.

The character is then discussed in terms of their merits and flaws and how they relate to the trope. After review, the various participants give their vote. A clear majority will cause a particular action to take place. Roughly tied votes will generally result in no action taken until a majority develops.

Putting papyru30's template on the Administrivia may help things as I view it as an improvement over the original section as:

• Almost everybody uses this template and it is good for others to learn it as well.

• The general standard of heinousness is not found in the 'setting' part, but as a separate aspect as shown in the template.

• Each of the template sections provides good advice on how and what to write in the effort post.

The replacement section will look something like this:

• How does the process work?: Well, someone makes what we call an "effort post". This takes the form of a lengthy post using this template to describe various aspects:

What is The Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Heinous Standard

Here you compare the Candidate to other characters in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinous Standard.

Final Verdict

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Afterwards, the various participants will give their vote on the candidate. If the candidate receives enough (at least five more than ), then the person who made the effort post should write up an entry for the candidate, although they may give permission for another person to write it. No action would be taken if the candidate does not receive enough .

Opinions on the updated section and any possible improvements?

Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.

@Draxterrus: Great idea dude! We'll add that so that no one has to waste time talking about how to make an effortpost when a template is available on the administrivia page.

Also, I have some suggestions for the FAQ page. The first one is: "Can a Hate Sink be a Complete Monster".

EDIT: Another proposal to FAQ:

• Question: What tropes do not belong in CM examples?
• Answer: YMMV. (I'd like other people to establish consensus on how far to elaborate on it.)

Edited by FoxyGrandpa12 on Jun 30th 2019 at 12:18:39 PM

Sorry for the delay but there has barely been any participation here apart from me and the OP. OK, now I shall deal with the above post as follows:

"Can a Hate Sink be a Complete Monster?"

The answer would go along the lines of this: "Yes, as long as their actions are heinous enough by the standards of the setting or genre. Remember that just because a character does something nasty and has no redeeming qualities doesn't mean they're bad enough for CM status even if they're worthy of hate."

As for the proposal about tropes that do not belong in CM examples, I feel this is unnecessary. I don't even know what to comment on it.

Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.

Paging ~Fighteer and ~nombretomado as they've had the most direct impact on the page's setup and info.

Complete Monster is a trope that stands by itself. It doesn't depend on or axiomatically exclude other tropes, except for obvious ones that establish sympathy or a reasonable motive for a villain. A character crafted as a Hate Sink may or may not be a CM; there is certainly a lot of overlap but one is not proof of the other. Likewise, a CM may or may not have a Moral Event Horizon within the story.

I am hesitant to include an exhaustive list of compatible and incompatible tropes because (a) it would make the article too long to read (it's already TLDR as it is); (b) tropes can change and synchronizing those updates with this policy article is a lot of extra work.

Putting in the effort post template is a good idea, but I'm not seeing a clean way to do it with the existing layout of the article. You can't nest folders.

Edit: if there's a post in the CM topic that contains the effort post template, we can link to it from the policy page.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 15th 2019 at 10:00:11 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Basically in agreement with Fighteer above. Hashing out all the various potential trope relationships seems like overkill, and difficult to manage to boot. A pinned template for EP's, however, would be immensely helpful.

I found that there is a recurring issue in the cleanup thread. There have been repeated cases of tropers at the thread complaining about Complete Monster entries not being present in the Monster subpages even after the entries were written up and posted on their respective YMMV pages. I understand that the Monster subpages are locked and it takes time for moderators to add entries to them by way of the Locked Pages Request Thread.

I wonder if we should do something about it and if we should update the Additional FAQs section of the Administrivia to include a question about why the entries aren't up on the Monster subpages immediately or quickly.

Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.

~Draxterrus I'm giving the go to the Hate Sink FAQ.

My new FAQ proposal:

• Q: Can I request that a character be added to the NA list?
• A: Absolutely not! it has to be brought up enough times for its inclusion to be necessary, period.

Any input? Because this one is just a short draft.

EDIT: I used the wrong sign to ping.

Edited by FoxyGrandpa12 on Aug 24th 2019 at 8:48:46 AM