RE: Blackress
The solution to their issue, unsurprisingly, was Mind Control. From a narrative perspective, its a very cheap and flexible tool that can be used to force whatever situation the writer wants it to happen. That way, they could keep Aversa as she is while also make her canonically playable in some form.
Honestly I feel if you have to ruin an enemy character that much to make them playable, they're better off staying an enemy. Especially if it involves that much misogynistic writing.
I really hope that treatment is never done again, imagine if they try to whitewash Reinhardt and have Olwen forgive him in a Thracia 776 remake for example?
RE: Red Hunter 543
Thales pulls the trigger, but that is to narratively do the work for the protagonists so the latter's hands remain clean. The Agarthans needed to die, but the writers didn't want the protagonists to personally kill them all
Basically its Bad Guys Do the Dirty Work at play.
And now I'm thinking about Chrom's father, I wonder if people would condemn it if fans would condemn Lambert if he tried to kill the Agarthans?
They aren't an inhuman set of monsters like Orks or Tyranids from Warhammer who are there to justify a Guilt-Free Extermination War in a war game, but a group of humans who represent the worst of humanity and are a cautionary tale to the three lords.
Whilst them definitely being humans makes it a better, I'll note World war II and other conflcit weren't done by killing every single fascist.
That and I find stories where people talk down fascist followers and get them to realize how following fascism and racism is ruining their lives is more interesting than just simply killing all. So I would have liked to see some Agarthans turn against Thales and give up their ways.
But that's just me.
The Slithers are much like real life fascists — unrepentant to the bitter end. Note that the defendants of the Nuremberg Trials were mostly unrepentant.
The Slithers are even worse since they are a remnant who have been stewing in their hatred for centuries. It'd be even less realistic if the protagonists could just talk them into giving up their hatred.
Edited by M84 on Feb 24th 2025 at 5:36:19 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised![]()
I have to note that even in VW where Thales blows up Shambhala, there are still Agarthans running around so no one actually committed genocide on either good guy team or bad guy team.
The Slitherers being their own worst enemy is very fitting, given they're supposed to represent the worst of humanity. I'll save my pity for people who actually deserve any pity at all.
"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."Besides, it's not like they didn't have other options besides hiding away underground.
It's immoral as hell of course, but they could have simply chosen to live new lives disguised on the surface. But nope — they simply used that power to continue their genocidal plans.
For them, it's not about bettering their own lives. It's about destroying the lives of others.
Edited by M84 on Feb 24th 2025 at 11:47:33 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised![]()
Yeah, even post Shambala, the Agarthans are STILL trying to kill all surface dwellers, unleashing Nemesis and trying an invasion of the Alliance in the Claude X Byleth ending, so killing them all won't even be genocide, it's self-defense at this point.
They really don't deserve any kind of pity after all that.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Feb 24th 2025 at 11:48:26 PM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"It's why I say that they're the most cathartic enemies to fight in the game, given the year that the game came out in and a certain group of people that were being especially loud during that time.
And like I said before, I'll probably need that Silver Snow save I have right on Shambhala for some needed catharsis.
It is pretty fitting that, in a game featuring a teacher as the protagonist, the worst faction of all is the one that absolutely refuses to learn from their mistakes.
Edited by dragonfire5000 on Feb 24th 2025 at 8:38:12 AM
"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."![]()
That just gives me the mental image of Byleth forcing arrested Agarthans to write "I will not be racist genocidal jackasses" on the board for the rest of their lives, post Verdant Wind.
I actually like to imagine in my post VW game, Claude uses the tale of the Agarthans as a cautionary story for future generations. Seems like something Claude would do.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
I've certainly used the mental image of Byleth making the House leaders write detention lines a lot, so I have no issue imagining Byleth making Slitherers write lines.
I'd like to imagine Verdant Wind Claude probably would try to look even further into the Agarthans after Nemesis's failed attempt at a comeback, especially since Rhea's revelations to him really shook him up and he'd probably want to learn more about Fodlan itself now that he knows some of his assumptions were off the mark.
"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."Indeed. I like that, when given the chance, Claude can actually choose to try and find out the truth, as opposed to Edelgard, who assumes she knows everything she needs to know.
I guess for Claude, the realization that Rhea and her people were victims and everything she did was to protect herself and her people made him realize he was dangerously close to what the Agarthans became once he looked back at his actions.
So he would look into history and make sure people knew about not only what happened in the first Nemesis war, but also with this war so that others wouldn't just become a new Agartha.
One Strip! One Strip!One big factor which gives Claude a huge advantage too is that much like Byleth, he is very much unfamiliar with Fódlan's idiosyncrasies due to being new to the setting. Not only this means he's a pretty effective 2nd Audience Surrogate if Byleth's not your jam, but it also means he hasn't been "tampered by Fódlan's darkness" unlike everyone else is.
That, and as much of a dreamer he is, survival is his 1° priority and he will do whatever needs to be done to ensure the safety of his people, even if it means surrendering to the enemy (after trying one last time to fight back just in case it works) or flip a coin and hope Dimitri comes to his senses at the right time.
EDIT:
@ Monsund:
I really hope that treatment is never done again, imagine if they try to whitewash Reinhardt and have Olwen forgive him in a Thracia 776 remake for example?
Agreed. Misogynistic writing is just dumb and the less I see Mind Control used as a plot device, the better.
@M84:
It's immoral as hell of course, but they could have simply chosen to live new lives disguised on the surface. But nope — they simply used that power to continue their genocidal plans.
Some random NPC in Azure Moon has a good quote which sum up my feelings quite well (it's directly applied to Gwendal, but I feel its applicability goes beyond it):
- Kingdom Knight: Lord Gwendal was pretty tough. If only he'd been on our side, he would have been a great ally. But it was Lord Gwendal himself who made the decision to throw his lot in with the Empire alongside his liege. I will neither pity him nor mourn for him. It would be an insult to his honor. To follow the path of justice, as long as life endures. That is the duty of a knight of Faerghus.
You can replace "honor" in that quote for "way of life" or something and it should still work.
Edited by Blackress on Feb 24th 2025 at 10:37:14 AM
Thinking about it, we talk a lot about how the Agarthans are written to contrast the Lords and their goals, but there seem to be implications for Silver Snow as well, which since it was the first route outlined is probably important.
Silver Snow deals a lot with the Eagles not only being forced to fight against their own country, but having to come to terms with the fact that said country's time is over and they'll have to built something new out of Fodlan's remains.
The Agarthan remnants continue living in what seems to be the last city of their civilization, still plotting to get revenge on Sothis and reclaim the surface. They probably could've avoided dying out completely by just accepting their defeat and trying to live peacefully among modern Fodlan humans (somewhat implied to be the case with Shez's adoptive mother in Hopes), creating a new home for themselves eventually.
I've mentioned before that the Slitherers serve as a good contrast to Rhea, just as good as they are contrasts to the House leaders.
I also mentioned a while back that I had a personal theory that at least some Agarthans probably didn't hold supremacist beliefs, but you don't run into any of them because those Agarthans likely intermingled with other people, so the only "pureblood" Agarthans left are the Slitherers.
"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."There's very little chance the Agarthans wouldn't just murder everyone if they ever hit a point where they no longer needed to use their disguise abilities. However, I would assume that, should they succeed, Techno Feudalism would still eventually happen. After all the other races are dead, the Agarthans would inevitably turn on each other and create that kind hierarchy there.
FE: New Mystery Only Feet 7PM PT Sun, Mon, Fri; Umamusume Haru Arima 7PM PT Wed, Thurs: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshiI'm actually discussing Techno Feudalism in the politics thread, and it does occur to me that the Agarthans and Necrons have a lot in common.
Albeit some Necrons are actually able to hold a civil conversation with the younger races.
But on the flipside, you have the Necrons who are obsessively genocidal towards all organic life than even the others are weirded out.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"@Yn K:
Both BE routes have that theme if you think about it actually; replacing the past with something better. The only thing that changes is whether Byleth's empire is the one that takes care of that of Edelgard's.
@Omega:
Not to mention, 3H's whole soundtrack has soft techno sounds all over it but always in the background, so you never really notice it all that much up until the Shambhala theme plays.
Heck, this was their first strategy. Just nuke everyone! The reason they went with this long game of deception and manipulation was because they don't have enough nukes to try that again.
Which of course goes along with how the Slithers' influence has been present throughout Fodlan's history all this time.
Edited by M84 on Feb 25th 2025 at 11:15:18 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised

If you get Flayn wrecked before he joins, he doesn't come along.
FE: New Mystery Only Feet 7PM PT Sun, Mon, Fri; Umamusume Haru Arima 7PM PT Wed, Thurs: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshi