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Deadlock Clock: Oct 17th 2019 at 11:59:00 PM
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#101: May 31st 2019 at 11:03:10 AM

[up]It does feel like Author's Saving Throw has basically decayed from what is written in the trope description. Was there ever a discussion thread about what sort of examples constitute Author's Saving Throw? Could've sworn there was, but search isn't giving me anything right now.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#102: May 31st 2019 at 11:11:44 AM

Yes, because I opened the ticket for repairing it to unanimous agreement that the trope needed to be expanded from its original definition (which could only apply to serial works that could be released in a chapter format so they can receive rapid feedback and course-corrected mid-production, and have been around long enough for a definitive status quo to be reached; this can only apply to certain types of comics and live action shows; any other kind of mid-series course correction is excluded). I don't know why the thread is no longer around.

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#103: May 31st 2019 at 11:38:25 AM

[up]I should probably clarify that I mean "putting examples of gameplay changes" when I say "decay," especially since a lot of those listed game mechanics aren't story-related.

I will admit that I prefer examples follow as closely to descriptions as possible, mostly because I've seen people use Tropes Are Flexible way to often to try and justify misuse, and misuse of Tropes Are Flexible has also necessitated cleanup threads.

In the case of Base-Breaking Character, I don't think the "conflict" part of the definition needs to be outright flame wars. However, it should be something more than just simple disagreements; people disagreeing on something is too common to be noteworthy.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on May 31st 2019 at 11:39:53 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#104: May 31st 2019 at 12:32:06 PM

Perhaps the definition should be that the disagreement should be a reasoned one, with arguments for that position given. That would still cover flame wars, while also allowing for disagreements that have reasoning behind it, but don't escalate to actual flame wars (like professional reviewers).

Edited by Redmess on May 31st 2019 at 9:32:15 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#105: May 31st 2019 at 12:43:42 PM

I still think it has to be an actual conflict to count, not just a simple disagreement. People can say "Let's agree to disagree, and talk about something else." Stuff that break bases should be a lot more heated than simple disagreements.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#106: May 31st 2019 at 12:54:14 PM

Where is the line drawn from "disagreement" to "heated debate"?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#107: May 31st 2019 at 1:04:51 PM

For me, signs of base-breaking heated debate among a significant portion of an online community would include:

  • High chance of arguments starting and continuing for a long time when a character is mentioned.
  • Both sides refusing to budge on their opinions and lacking in civility.
  • Vast majority of topics dedicated to the character go on for pages and mostly consist of people telling each other why they're wrong to think X.
  • This one is more for wikis: the subject is a frequent target of edit wars by several contributors. Too few contributors, and we may be dealing with a Vocal Minority.
  • Rules set by moderators calling for a ban on the topic (especially if there's a given reason that the forum-goers aren't capable of discussing the topic civilly).

Those are just a few off the top of my head. Please note that I'm not saying all of those must be present to qualify; I'm just saying those can be used to infer that there's very strong disagreements about the subject.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#108: May 31st 2019 at 1:14:05 PM

The first two will probably be the main indicators for any pre-internet conflicts.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
BrightLight from the Southern Water Tribe. Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#109: May 31st 2019 at 5:41:22 PM

[up][up] Is it even still possible to find such heated disagreements in forums if moderators are more vigilant about keeping the internet peace these days?

Sure, it's not impossible for one to break out, but that would be a very rare case since moderators and admins are very strict nowadays on being "civil".

Edited by BrightLight on Jun 1st 2019 at 12:42:33 AM

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#110: May 31st 2019 at 5:46:54 PM

[up]Depends on the forum and moderators really. Which is why it’s good to check as many places as possible to get as clear a picture as possible.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#111: May 31st 2019 at 7:21:56 PM

I haven't quite finished reading everyone's posts, so forgive me if I'm repeating something. Here are my thoughts about Base-Breaking Character:

Three identified problems with the trope as it currently stands are:

  • Quantifying the existence and scope of the middle ground. All fandoms will have this problem.
  • The existence in some fandoms of a 'hate-watching' element that should be discarded from consideration but which can completely distort a fandom's ability to be fairly troped under these kinds of audience reactions. Some fandoms will have this problem and some won't.
  • What is meant by 'divisiveness' for the purpose of this trope. All fandoms will have this problem.

To give a quick assessment of where I stand on the four current rules:

  • The middle ground rule needs to be addressed.
  • The rule about the divisive issue dying down over a sustained period of time shouldn't be a factor. While I agree we should have the six months delay to avoid knee-jerk reactions, it shouldn't matter that, <arbitrary period of time> after the show has ended, the fandom doesn't fight about it any more. We should have the ability to trope both that it does exist and that it did exist, that it was part of the history of the fandom.

Regarding the issue of divisiveness, I think the scope for the purpose of this trope needs to be locked in. The trope may have four criteria, but it's clearly not locked as people have still needed to discuss it.

Divisiveness is really a sliding scale on an issue by issue basis (Trigger X from now on), with harmony at one end, Vocal Minority somewhere down the scale and total war at the other end. Other tropes fall somewhere on this scale as well.

To me, this trope is talking about that state of divisiveness where a fandom has completely turned on itself. It's not simply a fanbase having arguments, even passionate, regular and repeated arguments, we're talking about the fights where Trigger X turns a fanbase on itself, the kind of fights where fandoms bring their Internet forum to a grinding halt every time Trigger X crops up because the fight stops any other activity from occurring where the fight is unfolding, where (to prevent that sort of thing happening) they end up staking out 'safe havens' on the Internet where only 'their side' can safely go and god help anyone from the 'other side' who gets caught trespassing. This could be anything from having mods controlling discussions or banning certain topics, to having different debate threads on the same forums to separate discussions, or even to the extreme of having entire forums dedicated to one side or the other.

That said, the rest of my post is going to focus on the issue of the middle ground.

Personally, I think both dragonfire5000 and DocSharp have a point. I do think the middle ground is important, but DocSharp is completely right to point out that if we can't know something, we can't trope it.

The problem here, I believe, is that, back in the clean-up thread, nobody was defining what is meant by 'middle ground' in the first place — not in that discussion and not in the trope description.

If a middle ground is important, but it also needs to be known, then the only middle ground we can ever care about is a middle ground that's entirely active and visible where Trigger X is concerned.

What that means is, if Trigger X in Fanbase A results in Side 1 and Side 2 turning on each other, there's either a highly visible group within the same arena that is either actively trying to carry on as normal or shut the two sides down, either because they can see both sides of the argument, or they disagree with both sides but aren't interested in staking out a third side. Or they are able to carry on discussing multiple sides with each other while Side 1 and Side 2 duke it out around them — the discussion equivalent of the butler carrying a silver tray of china teacups untouched and unruffled while a full-blown knuckle fight is turning the dining room he's walking through into a war zone.

However, if you've got a situation where Trigger X takes over the entire arena, so there is nothing but the fight and all else has melted away into nothing (no graceful butler, just the knuckle-fighters and kindling where tables and chairs once stood), there is absolutely no visible middle. It doesn't matter if no middle ground exists or if the middle ground has disappeared like the coaches disappearing from the boxing ring as the fight bell rings, all that matters is that every time Trigger X shows up, the fandom appears to turn into two opposing armies that are ready to kill each other, and it appears that nothing else exists in that fandom to stop them or distract them from doing so beyond moderator banning or thread/forum banishment of one side or the other.

I think defining the middle ground will make a number of seemingly rejected Base-Breaking Character examples eligible — easily so — and will help ensure the trope doesn't decay over time into PSOC where any division becomes an example of the trope. But only if the scope and nature (and therefore limitations) of 'middle ground' is clearly defined by the trope.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 31st 2019 at 3:51:14 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#112: Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:59:19 AM

I think in the case where a middle ground loudly complains about the conflict or tries to shut down any discussion about X topic, you're probably dealing with a Base-Breaking Character and/or Broken Base, yes.

Edited by PhiSat on Jun 3rd 2019 at 9:59:31 AM

Oissu!
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#113: Jun 10th 2019 at 9:56:24 AM

I've made a crowner here with some of the solutions I saw mentioned in the thread, since the conversation seems to have died down. If anyone has options to add please let me know.

Edited by PhiSat on Jun 10th 2019 at 10:56:40 AM

Oissu!
Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#114: Jun 10th 2019 at 10:02:16 AM

I actually support altering the definition to conform to how Base-Breaking Character is used, putting more emphasis on the reasons the characters are so divisive as well as how much of audiences disagree, as opposed to how intense the debates get.

Edited by Brainulator9 on Jun 10th 2019 at 1:05:31 PM

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#115: Jun 10th 2019 at 10:40:48 AM

[up] That wouldn't be a bad idea, if nothing else works.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#116: Jun 10th 2019 at 10:41:06 AM

[up][up]I could see that being a possible solution. I added it to the crowner.

Oissu!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#117: Jun 10th 2019 at 12:00:09 PM

I agree, and I think that's closer to the original intent of the trope back in the day before decay made it about just about every squabble. The most notable and effective change being the addition of a rule to prevent kneejerk examples (although sometimes I wonder if it would be better to reduce that to three months).

Edited by AlleyOop on Jun 10th 2019 at 3:03:33 PM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#118: Jun 10th 2019 at 12:07:44 PM

3 months seems pretty reasonable. A debate lasting that long is pretty noteworthy.

Oissu!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#119: Jun 10th 2019 at 12:32:31 PM

Now that we're allowing historical fandom events to slide and given the nature of some binge shows which have an intense fandom for a few months before petering off it might make more sense to be flexible with it.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#120: Jun 10th 2019 at 12:38:15 PM

Right; all the strict rules have done is prove this phenomenon non-existent if things like a middle ground are outlawed. But since this phenomenon really does exist in it's more natural state that allows for some wiggle room, the rules need to be relaxed.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#121: Jun 14th 2019 at 10:11:56 AM

Well, it's been a few days and there's been no changes in the votes since yesterday, so I think it's pretty safe to call the crowner. We've got:

  • 13 yay, 1 nay for allowing historical examples of the trope to be listed
  • 8 yays for redefining the trope to focus on why a character is divisive to the fandom rather than how heated debates get around them
  • 7 yays, 1 nay for axing rule 2
  • 3 yays, 5 nays for making a dedicated approval thread
  • 1 yay, 8 nays for cutting Base-Breaking Character altogether

So I think it's safe to say it stays. We might want to wait on not making an approval thread because 3:5 is a kinda narrow margin. Apart from that, seems like people want rule 2 removed, the trope redefined, and historical examples allowed.

Oissu!
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#122: Jun 14th 2019 at 10:17:32 AM

What crowner? Can it be hooked? Ordinarily I'd agree with calling it at those ratios, but given that this is such a common trope, it might be good to have wider participation.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#123: Jun 14th 2019 at 10:21:13 AM

I hollered a mod to hook it but nothing was done. It's a few posts up.

Edited by PhiSat on Jun 14th 2019 at 11:21:52 AM

Oissu!
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#124: Jun 14th 2019 at 10:30:18 AM

I don't see the voting list either. Was it not hooked properly?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#125: Jun 14th 2019 at 10:34:04 AM

It's a few posts up, again I don't think the mods ever got around to hooking it. Man, this is when I wish we still had post numbers...

Oissu!

PageAction: BaseBreakingCharacter
10th Jun '19 9:45:29 AM

Crown Description:

Base Breaking Character has stagnated, with the cleanup thread raising issues of the trope rules being too narrow to adequately document a real fanbase phenomenon. How should we fix the issue? Note that these options are not inherently mutually exclusive.

Total posts: 142
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