The subpages probably quality too, like DeconstructedTrope.Bojack Horseman and SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped.Bojack Horseman.
Edited by lalalei2001 on May 25th 2019 at 10:33:40 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.Sweet equine Jesus, there is no reason why a single character, even a main character, needs three subpages of character tropes. I'll do what I can to pitch in, because this is nonsense.
An approach that's worked in the past for bloated pages like this is to focus on cleanup first, then look at what's left and determine where it makes sense to keep pages split and where to keep them lumped.
I'll start with Characters.Bojack Horseman The Horseman Himself Tropes A To D and see how far I get.
Edit: Just getting started, a big part of the problem seems to be a combination of shoehorning and duplication of tropes between the main page, character pages, and recap pages. For example, Characters.Bojack Horseman The Horseman Himself Tropes A To D starts with the following:
- '80s Hair - This is in the right place, but it's duplicated on the main page. As a character trope, it only needs to be on the character page. I've deleted it from the main page.
- Aborted Declaration of Love - This is a plot trope, not a character trope. As the two instances listed are episode-specific, they can go on the Recap.Bo Jack Horseman pages for those episodes.
- Abstract Apotheosis - This is just plain shoehorning; Bojack has depression, he doesn't become depression. Deleting.
- Abusive Parents - Bojack isn't an abusive parent; his parents are abusive parents. The entry belongs on their character pages, not his.
I'm going to be taking the "cut and ask questions later" approach, because the problems are just plain too severe to handle any other way.
Edit 2: Got through the "A" folder on Characters.Bojack Horseman The Horseman Himself Tropes A To D and I already need a break. I'll come back to this later.
Edited by HighCrate on May 25th 2019 at 11:14:10 AM
Hey, it's not that bad, Dragon Ball: Son Goku has four subpages.
Anyway, just so I have some part in this thread, here are some commented out by me ZCEs from Characters.Bojack Horseman The Horseman Himself Tropes L To Z (I'm quite lenient, though):
- Love Hungry: Hoo boy.
- The Masochism Tango: In the early episodes, he used to go back and forth this way with Princess Carolyn.
- Meet Cute: His first interaction with Wanda in "Yesterdayland".
- Never Got to Say Goodbye: To Herb, at least not in the way he wanted. He dies hating BoJack.
- Not What It Looks Like: When Charlotte catches him with Penny.
- Sir Swears-a-Lot: Even with the great competition.
- Trademark Favorite Food: Toaster Strudels, cotton candy, and apple fritters.
- Unable to Cry: In public, at least. In private, however…
- Zen Survivor: Through Character Development in season 4, BoJack is on his way to becoming a Zen Survivor in-training.
- Feeling Their Age: And he's not happy about it.
- Forgotten Birthday: In January 2nd 2018. He's not happy about it.
- In the Blood:
Beatrice: Your father and I, we — well, you come by it honestly, the ugliness inside you.
Edited by Piterpicher on May 25th 2019 at 8:40:40 PM
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)I can try making Bojack Horseman less wordy hopefully without cutting anything.
I cut up one dozen new men and you will die somewhat, again and again.I removed the potholes from the page quote. I also think the quote can be trimmed down to just this:
Mr. Peanutbutter: Oh, and it doesn't for you? You're a millionaire movie star with a girlfriend who loves you, acting in your dream movie. What more do you want? What else could the universe possibly owe you?
BoJack: I want to feel good about myself. The way you do. And I don't know how. I don't know if I can.
Also, the character intro is a Wall of Text, which could probably edited down to talk more about the character than about every single thing that happened on the show.
BoJack Horseman - The Horseman Himself
Edited by naturalironist on May 26th 2019 at 11:38:50 AM
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"Which page is that again?
I wonder if the quote on Tearjerker.Bo Jack Horseman is appropriate. It's attributed to "You Tube commenter on the final scene from season 2," which makes me think it was a troper. It was added by twilicorn.
I'm also going to do a first sweep of the main page's description to cut out obvious fluff.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they prettyI removed duplicate/plot trope examples from Bo Jack Horseman The Horseman Himself Tropes E To K.
I believe the following tropes from that page are shoehorned and should be removed:
- Evil Former Friend: Deconstructed. BoJack's technically this towards Herb, since his word could have stopped the executives from firing Herb, yet he kept mum about it. Thing is, not only was BoJack actually reluctant about doing it, since Herb was his mentor and best friend, but the scandal was kind of Herb's fault for not being careful and Herb had tried to coerce BoJack into supporting him, which could have gone either way and gotten both of them fired. What truly hammers it home is that, despite those reasons for hating him, Herb has a more reasonable bone to pick with BoJack: the fact that afterwards, he never called, contact or cared about anything he did for twenty years, during which he was left out cold without the Only Friend that could have supported him.
- Face/Heel Double-Turn: Due to their stories running simultaneously, BoJack's current arc contrasts her mother Beatrice's Backstory. While BoJack undergoes some drastic Character Development and finally crosses the Heroes' Frontier Step through his interactions with Hollyhock, Beatrice's arc has her descent to Selfish Evil from childhood to elder age.
- Five-Man Band: He's The Hero out of the core five, for a measure of it. He also fits the Tragic Hero/Byronic Hero angle of the trope.
- The Fool: Played With. BoJack's high standards, desperate attention-seeking and highly impulsive actions more often than not have caused him trouble in every sense of the word, including several key players in Hollywoo having swore off any further involvement with him. Yet, a real Creator Killer has yet to occur and people are inevitably drawn back to him, even those who try like hell to stay away, with continuous work and new relationships popping up. Work, love, friendship, reasons vary but it's hard to deny that for all of his hard luck, there's a force at work who might be on his side.
- Furry Denial: BoJack doesn't do anything that indicates he's a horse. Ever.
- Grumpy Old Man: Downplayed. He's not old enough to qualify for this trope, but he certainly has the attitude.
- The Hero: Well, Anti-Hero and a pretty dark and cynical one at that, but still.
- Internalized Categorism: Often thinks poorly about himself and has a pretty fatalistic perspective of his future and every single decision and action he makes. It says something when BoJack can't really make a point on his favor when accused of something or just resorts to pleading to hear someone tell him he's a good person.
BoJack: This is all I am, and this is all I'll ever be.
- In Your Nature to Destroy Yourselves: Despite his best intentions, BoJack's entire raising and constructing of character have made it all but difficult to not only make a fully turnaround, but also to repair himself and others' relationship with him. In many occasions, it has been stated that BoJack's biggest fear is that he may be beyond help in this account.
- Ironic Hell: BoJack's main desire in life was to achieve fame and notoriety through TV, hiding his true intentions of being personally liked by people. He has achieved it by driving away the few people who care about him, only to find out too late that he's loved by the masses, but not in a personal way like he thought.
- Jerk with a Heart of Jerk: Occasionally. Part of the tragedy and despair in his life is that as much as he's capable of being a good horseman, his own demons and selfishness leads to him to undo most of his good actions. An odd variation since it's his desire to be good and do good for other people what fuels this. He's slowly (if clumsily) getting better in this department.
- The Four Loves: Extremely lacking in all 4 departments. In terms of Storge, he was born into a screwed up family and fails to find any parental figure through his life; his stunted development keeps him from forming any possible Philia with any friend he has slowly becoming more and more resistant to actually staying being friends due to his deep flaws; his twisted sense of entitlement in terms of Eros leads him to search for people who will love unconditionally in a place where ephemeral is the name of the game and even when he does, bad luck, bad decisions and failure at understanding will make such relationship collapse; and his constant entitlement causes any Agapia to leave him, Todd and Diane especially.
- Genius Slob: Gives good reasons why he hates the media, expresses valid points on the military on "BoJack Hates The Troops", shows a deep understanding of Secretariat and his path on "The Shot", conducts a complicated gambit on Todd on "Zoe and Zeldas" and before he was interrupted on "Let's Find Out", BoJack showed some impressive knowledge in history. For all of that, he spirals so much into alcoholism and self-loathing that these qualities are often blocked.
- Homoerotic Subtext: With Todd, Mr. Peanutbutter and most importantly, Herb. This last was more emphasized because he was gay, though.* Kick the Morality Pet: Tortured and sympathetic as he may be, BoJack shows little in the way of berating, browbeating or outright insulting the people he may care about, often at the risk of isolating or outright drifting away from them.
- The most common example is every interaction he has with Todd. Despite the latter being one of BoJack's Living Emotional Crutches, BoJack constantly insults him at every point, demeaning him at every turn.
- Other important people in his life aren't exempt either, be it Diane, Mr. Peanutbutter or Princess Carolyn. It all depends on his mood and how much does he want to blow some steam off.
- His actions in "Escape From L.A." are purely this. After escorting a date with Penny, Charlotte's daughter, and her friends, he gets them a better quality booze than Red Bull & Vodka, which causes one of them to have alcohol poisoning, requiring a trip to the hospital. Being the responsible adult in charge, BoJack panics and instead of leading her to the emergency room and taking responsibility for his actions, leaves the poor girl at the entrance along with her date with instructions to not incriminate him. Then, when he and Penny arrive at her home, he kisses Charlotte and tries to subtly coerce her into eloping with him, her family not withstanding. When she refuses, BoJack, at the end of his rope, accepts the request of sex he had rejected previously from Penny, ''a 17 year-old legal girl'' in Tesuque. When Charlotte finds this out, she warns him not to come back here again.
- Finally deconstructed through season 3, when everything BoJack has done wrong to people he cares about and hasn't fixed comes back to bite him in the ass: first, his mistreatment of Todd reaches a boiling point when he sleeps with his previous girlfriend Emily and lies about it in an attempt to keep their friendship intact (when it seemed to have finally been mended); Diane distances herself from him to try to stop herself from sinking into the same route she was at the end of season 2 (not really anyone's complete fault, just mutual toxicity); his attempts to mend with Kelsey after season 2 and push his career forward hit a dead end when deal complications result in Kelsey's movie being rejected and the horse is blocked from being cast for the blockbuster Pegasus; he fires Princess Carolyn due to boiling resentment on both parts and is revealed to not having been nominated for an Oscar in the first place, due to Mr. Peanutbutter losing the envelope and making the nominees' names on the spot. Worse of all, his actions in "That's Too Much, Man!" including a drug bender with fellow addict Sarah Lynn lead to BoJack screwing Penny up even further with his attempts at apologizing and to Sarah Lynn's overdose and death after having an epiphany and deciding to turn her life around, leaving him completely alone.
- Kick The Son Of A Bitch:
- ** Running over A Ryan Seacrest Type in "Brrap Brrap Pew Pew".
- His treatment of his dementia-ridden mother would be a lot harder to watch if several seasons hadn't detailed her abuse... and the fact that immediately after Hollyhock praises Beatrice, he explains that when he was nearly molested by his piano teacher, his mother's reaction was "I guess nobody wants you."
- Evil Former Friend- Bojack isn't literally evil or an antagonist. We Used to Be Friends fits better.
- Face/Heel Double-Turn- Bojack doesn't go from "the good guys" to "the bad guys". He just gets some character development.
- Five-Man Band- Characters do not fit a consistent team with a common goal.
- The Fool- Bojack doesn't have the innocence or cheerful disposition
- Friendly Enemy - relationship is a combo of Vitrolic Best Buds and Sitcom Arch-Nemesis. They're not literally enemies.
- Furry Denial - contradicted by Furry Reminder entry below
- Grumpy Old Man - Bojack’s not that old, and the entry is already covered by Grumpy Bear
- The Hero - Bojack has more of an antihero personality, and he's more The Protagonist than the leader of anything.
- Internalized Categorism - Bojack doesn't hate himself because of some category (being a horse, being male, etc.)
- In Your Nature to Destroy Yourselves - this is about the human race, not individual self-destructive characters
- Ironic Hell- trope is about literal hell
- Jerk with a Heart of Jerk: Contradicts Jerk with a Heart of Gold entry
- final sub-bullet of Freudian Excuse- not about bad things happening to him in childhood
The following are borderline in my opinion
- The Four Loves- not sure how this trope is supposed to be used, but feels weird
- Genius Slob- I wouldn't call Bojack a genius per se, but the entry does make the case for him being smart
- Homoerotic Subtext- I personally don't see this in any of their relationships (other than Herb's one-sided affection). I think this would better fit Ho Yay.
- Kick the Morality Pet: Are any of these morality pets?
- Kick The Son Of A Bitch: I'm not sure either is designed to make Bojack look bad- the first one is a joke, the second one, although not a nice thing to do, is kinda justified by the state of their relationship
Edited by naturalironist on May 26th 2019 at 11:40:46 AM
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"I agree on cutting down the quote to your suggestion.
And I agree with others here that we should be doing a mostly "cut first ask later" approach. There is just so much to go through at the moment. Anything that is not clearly a character trope should be moved to the main trope list, such as The Four Loves (which may be explored throughout the show but are not specific to one character). For Homoerotic Subtext, there isn't any in the show. Bo Jack considers Todd to be a mooch, and he doesn't like Mr. Peanutbutter out of envy, and Herb literally kissed Bo Jack and was turned down. It's all Ho Yay.
I will say...:
- Kick the Morality Pet. There are only two possible qualifying characters: Todd (throughout the show) and Diane (when she comes back from Cordovia). While everyone else is mistreated while being a crutch, Todd is the one BoJack pitied enough to let live with him simply because Todd told him he had nowhere to go. And in Diane's case that wasn't so much a Morality Pet situation as it was Bo Jack seeing himself in Diane, which the two characters have mentioned several times throughout the show.
I removed the info about "auteur sitcom" because I can't find any information about that alleged genre. I know what Auteur theory is and it's specific to a particular "auteur," being the creator of the show in this case. For some reason ~Unsung readded that info.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they prettyBecause it's true — it was referred to by that name. It was a neologism then, but it's apt.
Please provide sources. It's like calling something a "wasp sitcom"; the words don't inherently make sense when put together. Based on the meanings of the two words, it doesn't make sense to put them together.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they prettyYou just explained how it relates to this show in your previous post? And you said you know what The Auteur Theory is. I'm not sure I understand your objection.
A Google search for "Bojack Horseman auteur sitcom" turns up a few articles about the show that do indeed use the terms "auteur" and "sitcom," but none that actually call Bojack Horseman an "auteur sitcom."
No offense, Unsung, but you seem to be attempting to shoehorn in a personal take as if it were an established critical consensus.
Not only that, but the inclusion of the phrase in the context you're using it appears vague and, honestly, nonsensical. Yes, Bojack Horseman is a sitcom. It arguably has an auteur in the person of Raphael Bob-Waksberg. But the rest of the sentence doesn't talk about that; it talks about telling dramatic stories, which has nothing to do with The Auteur Theory.
The reason given for its removalnote still doesn't make sense to me, and this isn't my personal take or anything. An auteur film is a film made by an auteur. This is a sitcom made by an auteur, thus an auteur sitcom. We don't need to treat it as christening a genre and I don't think the line does, we're just reporting the terms in which the show has been described. It strikes me as a fairly neutral line.
Would adding "an auteur sitcom of sorts" help? We can rephrase, but I do think the connotations of auteur help get across the... sensibility of the series.
I didn't write the rest of that paragraph, so if it needs to be changed, I don't have a problem with that.
Edited by Unsung on May 26th 2019 at 1:38:37 PM
Why should we rewrite the rest of the paragraph to accommodate a phrase that you seem dead-set on shoehorning in?
...Why are you dead-set on removing any mention of it? And we don't have to rewrite the paragraph, you just seemed to be fairly dismissive of it in your last post.
I don't think "auteur sitcom" is a commonly-used term, but I agree with Unsung that it is a way of describing the show that provides useful and true information- a sitcom that is high-concept and has more of an aim towards "true art" than the usual sitcom. Whether or not you think most sitcoms are art, it's clear that the showmakers don't think so, given how in-universe sitcoms like Horsin' Around are treated.
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"It doesn't even have to be "auteur sitcom", if that's the sticking point. We can rephrase. "A sitcom with an auteur sensibility," or something, would be fine with me.
That's... not what auteur theory is. Auteur theory isn't about being "high-concept" or "true art," it's about a single creator (usually a film director) having a greater-than-usual amount of creative control, as opposed to a more collaborative system in which creative control is shared between, say, a director and a writer, or a director and a producer.
Is that true of Bojack Horseman? Maybe. Could it be mentioned? Sure, if accurate. I just don't see the need to try to cram it into an unrelated paragraph, especially since y'all seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the term actually means.
Edited by HighCrate on May 26th 2019 at 2:31:19 AM
It's a loaded term. What you're referring to is Auteur License, but the term auteur, particularly when applied to a film, or, say, an animated sitcom that deals heavily with the business of filmmaking, doesn't just refer to the license and control given to the auteur to do what they want, but also their preoccupation with certain themes, in the service of the art form.
Looking at Characters.Bojack Horseman One Shot And Bit Characters right now. Quick question: Can "The Reason You Suck" Speech go as a character trope on the recipient's sheet?
...and adorable on top!I can at least explain my edit reason. I was saying that calling it an "auteur" [sitcom/film] implies that the work's genre is unique to the creator of that work, and without RBW then it would be a completely different work than it is. Except a show realistically has more influencers than just one person, unlike a film and its director.
It's possible that people referring to the Autuer Theory in reference to this show were just trying to sound artsy.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they prettyI'd say that's actually part of why it fits as the description. That concern has been built into the common criticisms of Auteur Theory from the very beginning, which both the Useful Notes page and Auteur License mention. Lisa Hanawalt, who designed much of the look of the show, is often overshadowed by the celebrity voice cast and Waksberg as showrunner.
Without trying to debate the merits of the whole theory, though, I think saying things like "half sitcom, half auteur drama" does give people a pretty good sense of what they're getting into.
I'd say that's more of a main page/plot trope. Unless the character is in the habit of making those speeches.
I'd mention the example for Pam on the main page, and put the speech, if anywhere, on the Recap page. Also, wow, the girl from the first episode has a Character entry.
Edited by Unsung on May 27th 2019 at 5:57:20 AM
I can compromise with that, and potholing The Auteur Theory for those who've never heard of it before.
I just cut the description on BoJack Horseman - Charlotte Moore-Carson down from 970 to 460. It's like someone was trying to write a fanfic or something, with all the dramatic langauge nobody asked for.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
The BoJack Horseman pages are a mess. There are issues with gushing, Word Cruft, word confusion, sentence structure, trope misuse, etc. It's gotten to the point where we need a coordinated effort to clean up the pages.
For one thing, there are ten characters who have their own pages due to inflation, from both verbosity and trope misuse. The main cast and some of the significant characters have their pages, which is not in itself a problem, but if the pages were split due to Purple Prose and trope misuse, then we should trim those down some. I propose starting with these subpages. To wit, the pages are:
Another issue is the main page's tropes and description, which we could also work on. Basically the whole thing is a mess at the moment.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty