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I am gonna have to question you about how you make that call. So far you've only disucssed Game of Thrones, The Last Jedi and others. That's not "vast majority" by any definition.
Can we at least agree that some examples really do fit the definition that I discussed:
This one here discusses specific tropes and issues that the game is deconstructing. The language is maybe a little too verbose (mostly since tropers aren't professional writers and so aren't down on the whole brevity thing) and it's mostly neutral. The same applies to The Killing Joke example.
I just think it's better to reform the page then try and junk it. How would you suggest going about to reform it?
One reasonable entry is not enough to justify the existence of an inherently flawed trope that's attracting massive amounts of complaining. And even if it were, I'm not convinced that the BioShock example is a legitimate example.
When you boil it down to it's core points, it's ultimately just a long-winded criticism about a game that (allegedly) fails to live up to its premise, and (allegedly) falls short of adequately examining its central theme. As I’ve said before: that's an incredibly subjective distinction, and it's rooted more in personal opinion than anything else. And it begs the question: who gets to decide which works "live up" to their premise, and which ones "adequately" examine their central themes?
And considering that entry is a horribly formatted Wall of Text that disregards proper example indentation, it's not exactly the best example to use if you want to make a case for keeping the page. Especially since it was added by a troper who was permanently suspended for (among other things) bombarding pages with long-winded off-topic diatribes exactly like that.
To answer your question: I wouldn't propose reforming the page, because I don't think it can be reformed.
Its definition invites (at best) long-winded opinionated diatribes about works that don't live up to their premise, and (at worst) bad faith arguments that make assumptions about creators' intentions. It doesn’t add anything to the site that isn't already covered by Deconstructed Trope, Genre Deconstruction, and Decon-Recon Switch.
Sometimes, junking a page really is the best option. I think this is one of those times.
Edited by TheMightyHeptagon on Jun 6th 2019 at 11:02:08 AM
Rather than Informed Attribute, I think the analogous trope here is They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot, which is YMMV. That trope is also a huge complaint magnet, and has it's own problems.
Make YMMV or cut.
Yep, that was Ferot_Dreadnaught's point. I'm inclined to agree.
I think there would be issues with making it YMMV. First and foremost: it's a sub-trope of Deconstruction and a snowclone of Indecisive Parody, and neither of those tropes are YMMV—which begs the question of why Indecisive Deconstruction would be. So I'm still leaning strongly toward "Cut".
Edited by TheMightyHeptagon on Jun 6th 2019 at 10:43:29 AM
I prefer keeping and reforming the page...whatever issues that are there can be worked on and so on, we can improve and add caveats and so on, to make it better. Although I again question why Indecisive Parody doesn't get the same consideration, I mean deconstruction is more or less a parody that is serious. Alan Moore for instance said Watchmen is Kurtzman's Superman parody Played for Drama. Whether a parody is indecisive or not is even more subjective than if something is deconstructive to a trope.
I am okay with making this a YMMV though. I fully support that.
I already explained that in my initial post.
Calling something a "parody" is far more objective than calling it a "deconstruction". Parodies are easy to identify by their comedic tone; to identify something as a deconstruction, you have to examine its ideas and themes—which not everyone will interpret in the same way. Because of that, you can nearly always identify something as a parody without having to make assumptions about the author's intent.
And when a work alternates between treating an idea comedically and treating it seriously, it's often a deliberate choice—so it's not necessarily a criticism to call something an Indecisive Parody. But Indecisive Deconstruction is inherently a criticism, since it's just a thinly-veiled way of saying "It doesn't examine its themes properly." As if there's some objective way of determining what a "proper" examination of a theme looks like.
Edited by TheMightyHeptagon on Jun 6th 2019 at 11:34:40 AM
I'll also vote cut. Claims of one singular legit example is not enough when we require a minimum of three.
Well there's also this example:
And this one which is a little too long:
I don't know if Analysis Channel counts. But given that they identify and discuss the trope in their videos, it should:
All of those entries have exactly the same problems that I raised with the other ones, and some of them are even worse than the ones that I highlighted. All of them are just variations on "The story doesn't properly examine the themes that it introduces!" or "The story doesn't properly follow through on its attempt at realism!" Some of them take the complaint ever further, and imply (or outright state) that it was pointless to try to deconstruct their various genres in the first place.
To address all of those entries:
And I'm not even going to address the entries on The Cosmonaut Variety Hour, since they're just regurgitating other people's complaints.
I could address a few more entries on the page, but I think you get the idea...
Edited by TheMightyHeptagon on Jun 6th 2019 at 8:46:03 AM
I honestly am amazed that you think it's implying that it was pointless to try at all. That's totally not what's mentioned in any of these examples.
Anyway, I have said my say. I vote make it YMMV rather than cut it. Got nothing more to add.
Sorry Jack, but after reading through this thread, I'm with the others. I'm not sure if this can be salvaged, so I'm voting for a cut.
Going to have to vote for a cut as well. I don't think there's much to salvage, especially with it being a complaint magnet.
It suffers from being The Same, but More Specific-to-deconstructions as They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot, which should cover all YMMV reaction to underutilized plot directions anyway.
Edited by Albert3105 on Jun 6th 2019 at 1:30:52 PM
Do we need a crowner, or is there already consensus?
I'm not sure if one person disagreeing with the consensus would prevent an invocation of the snowball clause, but I say we're good enough.
I'm also inclined to agree with The Mighty Heptagon. This is not salvagable.
There appears to be consensus, but I'll leave it to the moderators to decide whether a crowner is necessary.
By my count, we have 9 votes for "Cut", 1 for "Make YMMV", and 1 that could go either way.
@naturalironist: Do you have any strong feelings one way or the other?
Looks safe to call in favor of cut. Let's get started.
Creator.Dakari King Mykan:
This was originally under Deconstruction, but I moved this (and similar entries under their specific works) here since it's not actually an example per this wiki.
What to do with it? Move to You Keep Using That Word since he's misusing Deconstruction? Just cut since it's troping the creator? Anything else?
I say cut.
Sandbox.Case Study Brave: I assume we'll be fine leaving it a Red Link removing all other examples then cutlisting the trope (as the sandbox will be cut eventually anyway). Any objections?
Update: Sandbox.Case Study Brave and It.Elenco Provvisorio H-I are the last remaining links. Anyone know what to do with them? Are we cutting the trope or redirecting?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 7th 2019 at 9:28:25 AM
The first is for an old pre-release works thread (no relation to the currently ongoing unreleased works cleanup thread), and there's no point in listing a trope that won't be listed on the corresponding work page. The second is for Italian translations for trope names, so there's no point in listing this one if it's getting cut.
Anyway, I removed the last two wicks and cutlisted Indecisive Deconstruction, since the consensus was to cut instead of redirect, and since it's been fully dewicked.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 8th 2019 at 5:14:44 AM
Will process the cut.
Since that is all that's left, time to close.
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