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Superdark33 The dark Mage of the playground from Playgrounds and Adventures Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The dark Mage of the playground
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#552: May 12th 2022 at 6:58:40 AM

Yeah. That "Avengers led to a Joss resurgence" is kinda what I'm talking about when I said the video wasn't a video essay, it was just a vlog where she shared anecdotes. There wasn't even the token "Google Trends" research. I think they just vaguely remembered some people getting into Firefly off the back of Avengers and ran with it.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#553: May 12th 2022 at 7:17:40 AM

I mean, I *definitely* remember Whedon becoming more popular after The Avengers, and a lot of praise went around to his Shakespeare adaptation that nobody remembers.

What I mean to said is I have problem with Sarah coment about fandom using box officies as up-manship gain between each other and a "Proof" their story are worthy and using that as yet another evidence of corporate influences that make "this corporation make huge amount of money" as point of pride, Sarah try to make a point on how fandom using money and fame is a result in part of corporation exploiting geekness.....

My problem with that approach is that it also ignore that feminism and progressive's fandom have also use box oficies in the same, case in point Capitan marvel and Wonder woman sucess and box smash was seen as pretty much a refutation that female led movies are bad, people totally use box offices as "HA, I told you so!" to the gatekeeping fandom, there is this expectation with minorities that if the movie is good or bad, the "Other side" will have bragging rights for a while.

I don't see how that isn't corporate exploitation and opportunism, though? Like, people praising Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel with the box office numbers is playing into the same issues.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#554: May 12th 2022 at 7:32:43 AM

... you were the first person saying you don't remember any resurgence in this thread.

EDIT: I suppose my wording was unclear. Sara (and Diana's post) referenced a resurgence in Buffy and Firefly off the back of Avengers. In my post, I mentioned a "Joss resurgence." I meant that as a means of saying "Buffy and Firefly resurgence" since that was what being discussed in the thread. Frankly, a resurgence for Joss in 2012 is impossible since he was doing incredibly well and I thought it self-explanatory. Apologies for any confusion.

Edited by Larkmarn on May 12th 2022 at 10:36:42 AM

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#555: May 12th 2022 at 7:52:26 AM

I said I don't remember a Buffy and Firefly resurgence, not a general boosting of Whedon's status in general.

Edited by Diana1969 on May 13th 2022 at 12:52:33 AM

Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#556: May 12th 2022 at 9:18:27 AM

I don't think Buffy and Firefly got to the level of becoming really prominent, but there was definitely more focus on them.

Fox only greenlit the remaster of Buffy because rerun/streaming viewing numbers went way up, IIRC. and then they super fucked the show over by doing it in the cheapest way possible I'm not much of a Buffy fan, but goddamn, no show deserves the kind of "remaster" Buffy got.

Not Three Laws compliant.
fearlessnikki Since: Feb, 2015
#557: May 14th 2022 at 10:22:28 AM

I can remember in the late 2000s and early 2010s, particularly around Dollhouse's airing (fans of The Sarah Connor Chronicles were pissed that it got cancelled in favour of giving Dollhouse a second season) that Joss Whedon was getting way more criticism. Cracked.com had plenty of articles taking potshots at his fondness for Waif-Fu and sexy Action Girls, and how he constantly said his script was the only thing not done right with Alien: Resurrection and his defensiveness of the "toad gets struck by lightning" line from X-Men. I can remember in my own reviews I complained about the way he wrote women. But then when The Avengers came out, it was like that public opinion went away. Or at least lessened, although there were still criticisms towards Loki's "mewling quim" line and the rather sexualized torture scene that Black Widow is introduced during.

There was also a thing where Feminist Frequency initially criticised his work - the first video was on Dollhouse and Cordelia in Angel was used as an example of the Mystical Pregnancy - so he was getting criticised very publicly. Then when Joss publicly praised the series, Anita stopped mentioning his work in her videos, and they became friends. So Joss was publicly friends with a woman criticising sexism in geek media, while also having directed a beloved groundbreaking blockbuster film. So that got him a lot of goodwill for a while. But when Age of Ultron came out, there were so many aspects of it that got criticised - Black Widow sterilization storyline (complete with Nat implying she's "a monster" because she's infertile), Tony Stark making a rape joke in a family movie, Scarlet Witch being written as a Femme Fatale who Mind Rapes people, numerous quips and jokes when the movie should be serious, pushing Captain Marvel's debut back again - that it was getting harder to ignore. And there was also a minor incident where he caught flack when The Mary Sue tweeted a rare thing just gushing about how hot Chris Pratt was in Jurassic World and he went "and I'm over here wishing this clip wasn't 70s era sexist", it came across really condescending (man claiming to be a feminist ally tells a feminist website what is and isn't sexist?). 2017 was the beginning of the end, since his ex-wife released a letter detailing his abuses to her, and the critical and commercial failure of Justice League (2017) did him in. Plus I'd imagine the public sympathy for Zack Snyder losing his daughter made it less acceptable to bash him, so Joss was an easy target. He probably only dodged the first wave of 'Me Too' allegations because he didn't have any physical or sexual assault strikes against him. Then when Charisma Carpenter came forward and most of the others backed her up, it was the nail in the coffin for him.

TL;DR - he was getting flack quite often on the internet in the 2000s and his reputation as a douche was kind of an open secret, but he briefly got a bit of goodwill back for a few years.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#558: May 14th 2022 at 10:42:00 AM

And there was also a minor incident where he caught flack when The Mary Sue tweeted a rare thing just gushing about how hot Chris Pratt was in Jurassic World and he went "and I'm over here wishing this clip wasn't 70s era sexist", it came across really condescending (man claiming to be a feminist ally tells a feminist website what is and isn't sexist?)

I vaguely remember some of that discourse. Jurassic World got a *lot* of criticism for being misogynist, but I remember some of the backlash to Whedon's tweet being kind of...weird. Like, Red Letter Media made a dig calling Whedon an "SJW" in one of their Half in the Bag videos.

There was also a thing where Feminist Frequency initially criticised his work - the first video was on Dollhouse and Cordelia in Angel was used as an example of the Mystical Pregnancy - so he was getting criticised very publicly. Then when Joss publicly praised the series, Anita stopped mentioning his work in her videos, and they became friends.

I seem to recall Sarkeesian getting backlash at the time for criticizing Whedon, but I'm not certain.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#559: May 14th 2022 at 1:27:47 PM

Scarlet Witch being written as a Femme Fatale who Mind Rapes people

I don't think it's accurate to call Wanda a femme fatale since she never uses her looks to manipulate people. I do recall criticisms about her being whitewashed and similarities to River Tam from Firefly.

Plus I'd imagine the public sympathy for Zack Snyder losing his daughter made it less acceptable to bash him, so Joss was an easy target.

I'd actually argue the opposite. Snyder losing a daughter didn't stop people bashing him for how the Justice League movie turned out and if anything, people were more sympathetic to Whedon. It wasn't until Ray Fisher came forward with his allegations of Whedon's behavior on set as well as the Snyder cut getting a better reception that Snyder got some sympathy. And even then there were still plenty throwing snark at him. Even now, I still see Whedon fans argue what he did on set wasn't so bad.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#560: May 14th 2022 at 2:00:49 PM

I'd actually argue the opposite. Snyder losing a daughter didn't stop people bashing him for how the Justice League movie turned out and if anything, people were more sympathetic to Whedon.

That's not what I remember. I remember people easing off on Snyder and criticizing Whedon's reshoots for using some of the same annoying humor that'd been associated with him (a lot of criticisms went to a scene of the Flash landing facefirst into Wonder Woman's chest, which was already recycled from Age of Ultron). I think there was some mild praise for things like a more typical depiction of Superman away from Snyder's controversial interpretation, but Whedon got a fair bit of razzing for his work. Then it went from razzing to wanting his head when Ray Fisher's allegations came to light (and that all mixed in with the Release the Snyder Cut movement).

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#561: May 15th 2022 at 8:57:57 AM

"I don't see how that isn't corporate exploitation and opportunism, though? Like, people praising Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel with the box office numbers is playing into the same issues.

Because is kinda reductive to why this female representation matter and why people also come to see it, since it is a victory that female storyline can get famous and said something, so I feel sarah is kidna reducing to just "Corporate stuff" is kinda missing the point.

Also I will said this is not coporate influencing geeks but rather geeks adapting to the new reality the story they wanted to be tell now can game like a bajillon dollars, because gees and nerd spaces does have this competitive mindset of what story matter most, you can see even this inside fandoms with stuff like "who is stronger? X or Y chararter?"(See nerd rage on Superman vs Goku in deathbattle) or Shipping wars(Ginny vs hermione....or those were the days), they all hard back to that.

"Cracked.com had plenty of articles taking potshots at his fondness for Waif-Fu and sexy Action Girls, and how he constantly said his script was the only thing not done right with Alien: Resurrection and his defensiveness of the "toad gets struck by lightning" line from X-Men.

I do remenber that but I dont remenber as atack solely to wheedon but mostly to the whole waif fu and "sexy and kicking ass" including trinity and others who was the norm at the time.

"Black Widow sterilization storyline (complete with Nat implying she's "a monster" because she's infertile), Tony Stark making a rape joke in a family movie, Scarlet Witch being written as a Femme Fatale who Mind Rapes people"

For what I remenber the nat conversation wasnt saying she was a monsters but mostly she responding Bruce concern about having kid who will inhereit is hulkness, but the dialogue is so awkard it get into that...it dosent help that Wheedon dosent get Natasha because at her work she isnt a monster, she is a weapon, she can stop what she is doing and just live a quiet life if she wanted but Bruce cant change the fact he is the Hulk, very diferent stuff.

Now with the rest...yeah, tony rape joke was weird since I swear hearing "I will be a fair but cruel ruler" in the trailers and Scarlet wasnt a female fatale but mostly a River expy of sorts, what it get very awkard was how she mind rape Bruce into becoming Hulk and unleash into a city(pretty much Bruce worst nightmare) and later Bruce actually grab Wanda and tell her "come up, probe into my mind and see if im angry" this is actually serious because is the first time we see Bruce banner actually piss off and someone and yet....the issue just banish and is never spoke again, well Civil war awkwardly pretend it never happen while making Wanda a woobie as hard as posible.

About Zack, what I remenber is that after Bv S, it become open mocking season for him and it got really bad for a while(I call this the star wars syndrome were mocking something gain a live on is own), the news about his daughter death kinda lessen some of it but not all(it was kinda awkard see this "I hate his movie but I didnt want this" which was practly everywhere) and nobody really said anything about Wheedon because they see this as patch job that Joss was phoned in.....Until ray fisher allegation, them sydner verse show that while not perfect he did make a pretty good movie and people cant ignore some of is choices, them Diana double speak up, them sabrina speak up and everything just.....got down for him.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#562: May 15th 2022 at 9:13:59 AM

People keep parroting the "AOU said sterile women are monsters" claim at face value ad nauseam to the point that it's starting to feel like a Beam Me Up, Scotty!. In context she's an an indoctrinated child soldier relating to Hulk over his being a killer, though that's not to absolve the scene either as it's loaded with other unfortunate gender implications.

At least to me, the scene seemed not to be saying that women are monsters for being sterile, so much as that women are naturally emotionally fragile and baby-crazy enough (not helped by recent characterizations of Wanda) that they think they need a womb and the ability to bear live children to feel whole, and also that said potential capacity for childbearing inherently makes a woman a more empathetic Madonna for it. Which anyone who's had an abusive biological mother or a loving adoptive mother would find quite insidious in its own way.

It's also exactly the kind of backhanded compliment to women that a superficially self-effacing fauxminist like Whedon would make, especially in the context of the "Beauty redeems the Beast" romance as a whole.

Edited by AlleyOop on May 15th 2022 at 2:57:09 PM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#563: May 15th 2022 at 9:16:10 AM

Because is kinda reductive to why this female representation matter and why people also come to see it, since it is a victory that female storyline can get famous and said something, so I feel sarah is kidna reducing to just "Corporate stuff" is kinda missing the point.

I'm still having a hard time parsing this.

Unoriginalusername3 from Nimmermeer Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#564: May 15th 2022 at 11:14:58 AM

I think they mean that female led superhero films doing well at the box office is important because it will lead to more female superhero films. After all the failure of Catwoman was used as an excuse not to make female superhero movies for quite some time, because according to them there was just no interest in female superheroes. Therefore it's pretty understandable that people cheered when WW and CM did so well.

Edited by Unoriginalusername3 on May 15th 2022 at 12:57:16 PM

HBarnill Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
#565: May 15th 2022 at 1:18:41 PM

I'm honestly stunned how Wonder Woman didn't nab a Best Picture nod when Black Panther did. Both were groundbreaking in their own way (and were kinda the same film).

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#566: May 15th 2022 at 4:26:06 PM

i think it's because Wonder Woman was generally less critically acclaimed, and DC movies were generally regarded as inferior to their Marvel counterparts, so that bias held over to even good DC films.

and also the academy awards are kind of a joke in a lot of cases, as with most award ceremonies regarding media.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#567: May 15th 2022 at 4:32:31 PM

Nowadays, Wonder Woman isn't really looked on super fondly by many people. I think it's a mix of the "first good DCEU movie" image weakening with subsequent films, the backlash to Gal Gadot, and the abysmal reception to the sequel.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#568: May 15th 2022 at 4:35:55 PM

The way I personally read the Black Widow scene in AOU: The point was meant to be that Natasha was wrong. That SHE, as a character, was putting too much stock in the idea that not being able to have children made her a monster, especially in conjunction with her being trained as a killer. I didn't get the sense that the movie necessarily agreed with her?

It's been a while since I watched the movie though.

Edited by GNinja on May 15th 2022 at 11:41:23 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
Motyka5 Since: Aug, 2011
#569: May 15th 2022 at 4:46:18 PM

[up] Yeah, that was my read as well.

Just a person. He/him.
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#570: May 15th 2022 at 4:54:43 PM

I kinda agree with Sarah's last video, mainly due how the alt right has kinda ruined nerd culture. If I just want to watch a fun video about Star Trek or Marvel characters, I have to search the channels videos to make sure it's not some alt right guy complaining about "wokeness". I didn't have to do that before Gamergate.

Edited by Overlord on May 15th 2022 at 4:58:13 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#571: May 15th 2022 at 5:27:27 PM

For what it's worth I think the first two acts of Wonder Woman 1 still hold up reasonably well. Although I do think a lot of it is because of characters like Sameer and Chief who were absent from WW 84.

[up][up][up] I thought so similarly, you are not actually supposed to take her statement at face value like a lot of people who criticize the line have. The point isn't even to emphasize her infertility but her past as a murderer, which is the actual part of it she considers monstrous. Hence why I think it's a Beam Me Up, Scotty! in spirit.

But at the same time, the film didn't do enough to challenge some of the sexist underlying assumptions that would lead her to make that kind of conclusion about herself either, or at least imply that those beliefs were themselves the result of severe indoctrination and gaslighting rather than rooted in anything rational. The idea that it's reasonable for her to even entertain the idea that infertility would contribute in any way to one's ease in killing people outside of less time incapacitated due to pregnancy or periods, as opposed to losing the option to choose (especially when adoption is a valid option, though then again the same writer added a tasteless adoption joke in the last movie), is ludicrous unless the movie itself is also operating on that assumption or the idea that the audience has that assumption.

Edited by AlleyOop on May 15th 2022 at 12:24:06 PM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#572: May 15th 2022 at 6:20:37 PM

[up] I call that the Flanderization of Criticism.

Over time, a movie that people generally agree is bad or mediocre will become subject to more and more criticism that's less and less thought out. It'll be accused of having plot holes it doesn't actually have, and the genuine criticisms people originally had with it will lose nuance and become more all encompassing.

The problem with the Natasha line is relatively nuanced, and it's more to do with how the movie isn't really interested in exploring or equipped to engage with the theme it put forth in that scene.

Edited by GNinja on May 15th 2022 at 4:06:26 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
KaabiiFan13 Since: Apr, 2022
#573: May 15th 2022 at 9:00:32 PM

[up] "Flanderization of Criticism" is a pretty fitting name for this phenomenon.

I wonder how many instances of Seinfeld Is Unfunny occurred as a result of this

Edited by KaabiiFan13 on May 15th 2022 at 12:00:50 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#574: May 16th 2022 at 2:10:08 AM

Doesn't help when the creator of the work is contentious in real life.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#575: May 30th 2022 at 2:43:42 PM

New video, in which Sarah explores the rise of streaming and bingewatching, how networks began veering more towards the binge model of single-day releases, and the negative impact it's had.


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