Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order

Luke's in the EU came close, but he still had apprentices go off the deep end (Jacen, Desaan, others)

You do get "Sensible" Sith as well, but they do all tend to grab the Villain Ball at points.

And it's one of the reasons I quite like the Clone Wars cartoon - it shows War is Hell, it shows how tactics and strategy seem really alien. The Clone armies are little better than the droids and the attitude of some Jedi in that clones are things to be expended is interesting. It also, as you say, gives that idea that Palpatine was setting the Jedi up to fail, to drain their will and to wear their whole infrastructure down, whilst also subtly shaping the republic. And it does it better than the PT did in it's limited run time.

As someone mentioned, the Republic are at times very hard to root for as well - clearly being incompetent and militarily imbalanced as well. There's some inconsistencies for the sake of plot (The tactics shown, the decision made, continuity between episodes etc) and for some reason even in sci fi, combat seems to be Napoleonic insofar as marching armies towards each other and hoping you win. Also, the forced idea that they won't help the rebellion of Saw Guerra as the planet is a "Sovereign state" (Admittedly a precedent set by Mandalore) even though there are Seperatist military assets there - thus making the planet a legitimate military target! But that was to show a conflict between "Terrorist" and "Freedom fighter".

Something else to consider: the Sith are just as blinkered too - their end goal appears to be "Eliminate Jedi" and then "Rule" but they don't seem to have an outcome past that (At least Palpatine didn't. Except preserve his powerbase which was already vulnerable. And it depends if you then take into account his awareness of the Vong... which aren't canon now anyway) - compare them to the Sisters of Dathomir who seem pretty satisfied to just stay there and NOT conquer the galaxy. Dark Side users, but with a sense of family, cohesion, honour (To a point).

I wonder if it'd be possible to have an academy where you allowed study of the Dark Side, had "Sith" or Dark side teachers - alongside the light. Where balance could be maintained. But it depends what the goal of a Dark sider is - if it is, as their code dictates, independence and control, then by what metric is it? If you had Yoda teaching alongside a Night Sister, for example.

The Dark Side isn't part of a balance. The Dark Side is imbalance.

Balance isn't between Light and Dark. It's more balance in the sense of achieving peace and harmony.

It is true that an academy for Force Users should have curriculum dedicated to learning about the Dark Side. One of the reasons the Jedi fall is because they deliberately avoid learning about the Dark Side for fear of being corrupted by the mere knowledge of it.

TBF, that's usually a pretty valid fear — two of the only ways to learn the Dark Side are from actual Dark Siders (who want to corrupt people) and Sith Holocrons (which are pretty much always an Artifact of Doom that tries to corrupt people).

It also doesn't help that a lot of Dark Side arts are, frankly, fucking terrifying. We're talking Unit 731 and Mengele territory here.

The Sith being rather blinkered is justified because they are, at their core, people driven by selfish impulse. It's All About Me incarnate. Especially Vitiate, whose grand plan was to essentially make a solipsistic worldview reality. He took It's All About Me as far as someone could take it.

Edited by M84 on Apr 18th 2019 at 7:34:17 PM

And then you get actual Dark Side abominations such as Nihilus, who legitimately EAT the force. So yeah, I suppose thinking of it as "Dark and Light" is wrong.

It's not, shadow and Light. It's live vs anti-life in a way.

But that was where the Jedi went wrong with that whole "Bring Balance to the Force" - Anakin really DID, in a literal sense - removing the tipping point away from the light. so there were only a few Jedi left, vs more powerful Sith.

But as I mentioned, I believe there are examples of Dark Side users who haven't gone full Pennywise / Space Mengele. But they're rare (Kyle Katarn potentially. Revan, perhaps...)

But as you say, some see the Dark Side as a means to achieve "good" ends, but they end up just following it for short term satisfaction and gratification. So wonder how deep they'll go in this game (Considering the Inquisitors and Second Sister feature heavily) with being tempted by the Dark side. And if it'll add to the lore on that front.

TBF, Anakin did bring Balance. It's just that he did it after he had already left the Force in darkness. He destroyed the Sith after he had already become one of them.

Revan may not have gone full Mengele, but he did bring destruction to the Galaxy on a scale that has rarely been matched. And even after he turned back to the Light, the legacy he left behind would continue to inspire future generations of the Sith.

As for this upcoming game...we'll be playing as an ex-Padawan who is being hunted. Everything he's ever known was destroyed in an instant. He's gone from being a hero to a fugitive. He'll likely be completely alone and have no one he can trust. And he knows that his Order and its teachings failed.

...Yeah, falling to the Dark Side is a very real possibility.

Imagine a situation where he's hiding out in a bar and sees a news broadcast denouncing the Jedi Order as hateful traitorous scum who were the ones responsible for the Clone War and all of the bar patrons agree and shout obscenities cursing the Jedi. The urge to cut down everyone in that bar with a lightsaber would be nearly overpowering.

Edited by M84 on Apr 18th 2019 at 8:42:47 PM

Kyle outright tells you to be afraid of the Darkside, He quite being a Jedi due to it

Kyle and people like him are very attempt by some writers went that not all force Abilities are necessarily Dark or Light using the Example of Luke in ROTJ where he choked out the guards clearly its Vader's force choke but used none lethally

Kyle is no power is light or dark but intent but is crystal clear that the Dark side is NOT something you should be trying to game

then again that is the hilarious notion that the only reason there is blur is everybody and their mother trying to justify their Jedi character throwing lightning but not being on the darkside

essentially its trying to loophole a way to where Good characters can have all the cool powers

The reason Jedi don't teach Darkside 101 or the like is cause the artifact tend to corrupt the sturdier, IE the actaully Reason kriea got kicked out of the was cause She had Sith holocrons... the same ones that Atris ended up with and those ended up corrupting her

Thats the horrifying nature of the darkside it corrupts EVERYTHING IT TOUCHES... I mean Once you got Sith, it usually doesn't take long for guys to come Jackbooting who want to help them in droves

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Apr 18th 2019 at 8:07:41 AM

And eventually some writers just went fuck it and created a Light Side version of lightning (that skirts close to Dark) that can be either a non-lethal take down or instant kill.

Edited by doineedaname on Apr 18th 2019 at 9:32:17 AM

KOTOR did that but it was used to short out droids.

I always figured that Luke's use of the Force Choke, even if it was meant to be non-lethal, was meant to be a sign that Luke was treading dangerously close to the Dark Side.

And as you say, it's because people want to have their cake and eat it. I find absolutist philosophies a bit much, but that's the Star Wars Universe - DS is toxic, LS is fine.

I just wonder whether it's the USER or the FORCE that causes the issue - as you say, Luke chokes the guards in Jabba's palace but he does it without malice or joy, instead doing it via calm focus.

Vader does it, but there's a pleasure underlying it, a venting of frustration (Rogue One's dad joke being a fantastic example)

I suppose the question is then - are Sith capable of GOOD and being good consistently (As portrayed, to a point in TOR). Because the end result there is you are essentially a light sided force user on the side of the Empire and only "nominally" Sith.

A Fable-like game with open world Jedi Shennanigans could have been great - running around a planet as a proper RPG with alignment. The narrative twist for FO could be curious - I imagine they could pull a multi-path choice or even a non-standard game over if you side with the baddies at some point.

Luke using the Force Choke along with his choice of mostly dark clothing is supposed to be a sign indicating that he's at risk of falling into the Dark Side throughout the movie. He doesn't fully solidify himself as a Jedi until near the end when he throws his lightsaber away.

I consider Light Sith to more or less be Jedi-in-denial. Like, they're too invested in their identity as Sith to leave it behind even though they don't want to follow the Dark Side anymore.

The Sith identity itself is their last attachment keeping them from becoming Jedi.

Being a Light Sith means one is a Sith-in-name-only, since the whole point of the Sith Code is embracing the passion and aggression and other emotions that lead one into the Dark Side. If you're rejecting the Dark Side to join the Light...

Edited by M84 on Apr 18th 2019 at 10:25:59 PM

I'm hoping the protagonist manages to become a Light Force user without being a Jedi, though if he was a Padawan beforehand he probably doesn't see anything wrong with the Order's tenets.

Depends on how good a Padawan he was. It's possible that he was a somewhat rebellious Padawan.

honestly it does get to the point where people will use the Darkside as an excuse for a person's actions

IE See 80% of the EU post ROTJ characters, IE Kyp 'I blew up an inhabited Solar system' even if I did give them a warning

I think thats why Kylo kinda fails at being sympathetic cause at this point the only real explanation for Kylo's behavior in the movies is

" PUPPET: So there's something I've been wanting to ask you for some time now. You've seen the things I do in the past as well as in the future.

CLYDE BRUCKMAN: They're terrible things.

PUPPET: I know they are. So, tell me, please, why have I done them?

CLYDE BRUCKMAN: Don't you understand yet, son? Don't you get it?

(Puppet shakes his head and shrugs.)

You do the things you do because you're a homicidal maniac.

(Puppet thinks about it for a moment and smiles.)

PUPPET: That... that does explain a lot, doesn't it?"

Darkside + someone already mentally unhinged = FUN TIME FOR EVERYONE

Of course, the Dark Side isn't an excuse. Just like how being drunk or high or stoned doesn't excuse anything someone does.

The Dark Side is a perfect excuse, since the Galaxy is in a predestined loop.

Kylo Ren is objectivly a terrible human being.

While Vader was born from a lifetime of trauma, warfare, anger issues that went untreated &/or enabled, & the loss of people he dearly loved.

Kylo Ren on the other hand was more or less born a bad egg from the start, with desires of ultimate power and while idolizing of his mass-murdering grandfather for being powerful.

Its telling that Anakin only went to the Dark Side to help his wife while Kylo Ren actively forces the Dark Side onto himself for no other reason than "I want to be a bad person."

And don't give me "His uncle tried to kill him" that's obviously just an excuse like any other.

Edited by slimcoder on Apr 18th 2019 at 7:52:05 AM

Not at all, he was explicitly manipulated from childhood and everyone knew it. Later events mostly just enforced what was built there and expecting such an unstable character to make good decisions at that point is kind of moot.

The whole Snoke manipulated him from childhood thing is very iffy.

I think that was only stated in the novel adaptation for TFA or TLJ. The movies themselves never really make note of it.

Deleted scenes from TFA also say it IIRC.

Well shit alright then.

Really should have kept those deleted scenes.

Edited by slimcoder on Apr 18th 2019 at 9:46:48 AM

Snoke basically groomed Kylo in a manner remniscient of Palpatine grooming Anakin.

It just has more of an impact in the latter case because we actually got to see it happening.

Shit, even Anakin's rise as a hero in the Clone War was part of it. Palpatine was stoking Anakin's ego and pride by making him into a hero, making him that much more vulnerable to the Dark Side.

It started the moment Palpatine told Anakin as a kid "we will be watching your career with great interest."

Palpatine even wrote in his book The Creation of Monsters about how proud he was of turning Anakin into a monster and how much he enjoyed doing it.

Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal.

Edited by M84 on Apr 19th 2019 at 12:57:07 AM

Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order Official Gameplay Demo - E3 2019

does anyone else think the main protagonist looks like Archie from Archie comics/Riverdale?

Edited by Ryno_v on Jun 8th 2019 at 4:00:13 AM

No, but he is quite generic. Not cuz he's white but because his hair style and outfit are basically "every action protagonist"-style.

I do like the combat though. Fights with the Purge Trooper looked like actual duels and stuff when the controller wasn't letting Cal get beaten on. I like how the lightsaber actually works like a lightsaber too. Deflecting blaster bolts back at enemies kills them immediately, and so does getting slashed with it.

Definitely getting a bit of a "jedi knight" vibe from this - detailed but mostly linear levels and very story driven. I liked the LOOK of it, but the protag seems too "kiddy". A character creator could've worked here, but then again it's not an RPG with branching plot by the looks of it.

My thoughts:

-Actually, I kind of like the hero. They are somewhat generic, but they do feel very Star Warsy. Not the best, mind you, but more than passable. Especially his interactions with BD-I think his wearing the droid like a back-pack might be what makes me like the character.

-The combat is cool, though there is the issue that some of what's shown feels a bit out-of-character for a Jedi in its brutality and pragmatism. This sort of thing works better in Force Unleashed because you're a Sith anyways. Admittedly, some of this is arguably kind of a necessary consequence of certain features.

-I fear EA will find a way to screw this up.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Jun 8th 2019 at 3:28:01 AM