I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
Ghomst
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
done!
I'm actually going to argue for this one to be restored. I frequently find Big NOs to be overwrought and somewhat comedic (there's a reason why my go-to for explaining the concept to outsiders is Darth Vader in ROTS rather than the forgotten trope namer). Obviously different people are going to have different opinions on what's appropriately acted grief in fiction, but that's why it's a YMMV trope.
Ghomst
Re: Xenoblade 3
I think I miscounted some of the bullets in the narm section. Which one should have been removed: The one about X and Ys death or about The events of chapter 5 being undermined by the a character announcing something
Edited by Ayumi-chan on Oct 5th 2022 at 9:27:42 PM
She/Her | Currently cleaning For Want Of A Nail
Bringing up the following examples from Narm.Gundam:
- Char is into little girls. At least that's what the English dub of Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack tells us.
- The name Full Frontal in the generally more serious UC setting. Try not to chuckle at the name: it's supposed to signify his favorite kind of attack... no, not that kind!
- The hero's name is Banagher Links, which would make an awesome name for a golf course.
- Full Frontal also sports a curled mullet, which looks ridiculous in a sci-fi setting. How were we supposed to take this character seriously?
- The show gives '80s Hair to everyone. Given how some scenes have a sense of weightlessness to them, this can get crazy for those bearing a massive 'do. Micott Bartsch has quickly risen to meme status due to this.
- The English cast's difficulty in pronouncing Mobile Suit names is back in Unicorn, with such gems as "JAY-GAN" (Jegan), "RESEL" ([ReZEL]), and "SEE-NANE-JUU" (Sinanju).
- Because this show is Darker and Edgier, the unintentional humor in Victory Gundam is even funnier. Cronicle's death can be pretty funny, especially due to the camera angle. "Maria..." *THUD*
- Values Dissonance causes another big narm as well. The Zanscare military meetings become freaking ridiculous when you see either grunts or commanders wearing these ridiculous old-fashioned wigs. We know, it's The Empire, and some also know it's a Shout-Out to formal professions like English judges and their wigs... but for some, it's still funny.
- G-Saviour is already an awful movie, but check out the battle of Side 8. Even without the "awful non-action scenes", it's still pretty narmy.
- You'll either react with laughter or a Flat "What" upon learning that the mook CONSENT Mobile Suit is named "Bugu". No, really.
- The voice acting in the PS2 game is either this or So Bad, It's Good. At least it's much better than House of the Dead 2 or Mega Man X4.
- The G-Saviour's Origin Mode◊.
- Is that funny or just creepy? Regardless, it's a ZCE.
- General
- General
- General. Also complaining.
- General and Natter.
- General and regular flaw.
- The actual specific example needs more context.
- General. Also "causes another big narm" is poor writing.
- Complaining, weblink instead of context, ZCE.
- General and overly complainy.
- General and ZCE
- Weblinks Are Not Examples and ZCE.
Bringing up the following examples from Blonde:
- Narm:
- The poorly CGI'd foetuses interspersed throughout the latter half of an otherwise visually stunning film are out of place and quite funny. It gets even funnier when at one point, a talking CGI foetus has a conversation with Marilyn, berating her for having a (forced) abortion in the past.
- Norma Jeane's repeated habit of calling her husbands "Daddy" can get rather chuckle-worthy after a while, especially since it's a painfully on-the-nose way it is of reminding viewers that she has daddy issues.
The first bullet is probably fine. The second is too general and reads as just a flaw that someone wanted to nitpick.
Bringing up the following example from Truth or Dare (2018):
- Narm: As mentioned below, the face people make when Callux possesses them, looking like goofy Joker-like smiles in most cases, and in other cases, a Jim Carrey impressionist.
That one might be fine, but the part that refers to another entry should probably be snipped.
Ghomst
( x7) what about the Xenoblade 3 Narm correction
Bringing up the following examples from Ghost in the Shell (2017):
- Narm:
- Kuze's name is dealt with inexplicable gravitas, like it was a some sort of meaningful, menacing title, like the Puppetmaster or the Laughing Man. The chances are that it was one of these two in earlier drafts and the script never ended up changing how it was presented.
- The sheer amount of times that the film crams some variation of "Ghost in the Shell" into the conversation. This extended to the film's release in Spain, where it received the subtitle of The Machine's Soul in Spanish (admittedly, to make the title a bit more comprehensible given its awkward English).
- It is evident that the film retains the manga's original Japanese setting, as the President is referred as "Prime Minister", traffic is left-handed, and there are Japanese cultural elements everywhere. However, both the film and its promotional materials are bizarrely shy about this and never mention explicitly where is it supposed to take place. This makes it look like the producers couldn't decide about a possible Thinly-Veiled Dub Country Change and just opted to write around it, which only makes it more awkward.
She / Her
They read like regular flaws to me.
I, uh, kind of thought it would have been obvious - the second one (Chapter 5), which actually makes a case how it could be unintentionally funny. The first one is just complaining.
Ghomst
alright I'll restore the latter and remove the former later.
Edit: DONE!
Edited by Ayumi-chan on Oct 6th 2022 at 5:24:07 PM
She/Her | Currently cleaning For Want Of A Nail
Bringing up the following example from Ghost in the Shell (1995):
- Narm: The overabundance of philosophical quotes in Innocence could be seen as one. It's as if one of the writers brought home a book of famous quotes and was determined to have the characters recite every last one.
"Could be seen as this" = Weasel Words, so the example is most likely a shoehorn.
Bringing up the following examples from Narm.Gundam:
- G Gundam generally runs on Narm Charm with its character designs and dialogue, but if the finale doesn't come off as as an awesome and heartwarming moment of epic proportions, then the fact that the Big Bad is killed by having The Power of Love drive a heart-shaped hole through their chest will come off as completely ridiculous and hilarious.
- General Septem from Gundam Wing has a hilariously awful dub voice that is scratchy and poorly acted.
- General Septem's death is incredibly over the top to the point of absolute hilarity. The plane's cargo door opens up underneath General Septem (who sounds like he's having an orgasm rather than a horrified scream in the dub) to drop him and, instead of being sucked out of the plane like he was, Lady Une stands at the edge of the door to shoot Septem in the head as he falls as if falling out a plane wasn't enough to kill him and she needed to make sure.
- Here's a sample of the greatness that is General Septem. One of the commentors put it best when they described it as the type of voice you would see in an Abridged Series.
"ARE YOU MAKING FUN OF ME, DAMN IT?!!" - Also from the English dub:
"NOOOO IT'S A GUNNNNNDAAAAAM!"
- Really, it's the random characters in the background who get the best lines:
Peacemillion is about to crash into Libra "Engines one and three damaged! Now we don't have to turn them off! Alright, HOW ABOUT SOME EXCITEMEEEEENNNT!"As the ship's bridge is being rocked by explosions "Lieutenant Colonel Lady Une! Gundam still attacking on the ship!"
- One character is named Dr. J. It's nearly impossible to keep from chuckling through any conversation involving him.
- In the very first episode, Zechs orders "No machine-gun for him!"... only for the soldier to fire with a machine gun. It's supposed to be military speak that translates to "no warning shot for him", but it's still pretty laughable.
- The next episode introduces another translating gaffe. Word of advice - never use "move your butts" in a tense situation.
- The name "Mobile Doll". The military invents A.I.-controlled giant robots and they decided to name them after toys instead of anything else.
- This example argues against itself, and would either need to be cut or cleaned up. I've never seen G Gundam, so i can't say anything else, but as is its a bad example, accurate or not.
- As far as General Septem...his voice actually fits his character very well. He's an annoying obstructive type who is easily outmaneuvered by Lady Une and Treize, so it makes sense that he is constantly yelling and annoying sounding. I would cut all that.
- The bit about his death definitely fits as Lady Une monologuing before shooting him, and shooting him at all, is silly. But that line about his scream sounding like an orgasm can be cut, it's just a normal sounding "What?! Ahh!" The three bullets about Septem can be merged into one example about his death.
- Weblinks Are Not Examples, and this doesn't even attempt to explain anything. People screaming out whenever they see a Gundam is pretty justified, as it's the equivalent to a soldier on horseback spotting a tank-pretty much everyone in that compilation is moments away from death, and they know that. Cut.
- Cut the part about "random characters". Both of these bullets are ZC Es.
- Cut the Dr. J part. That's association Narm, and a bad example (it doesn't even explain who the other, more famous Dr. J is). You might as well say OZ is Narm because the Wizard of Oz exists.
- This one could probably stay. The machine gun line sounds silly in the dub, because it was poorly translated and poorly explained in the scene.
- Cut the Mobile Doll part. "Silly name" doesn't make for Narm because it's not a single moment, and that's putting aside that militaries use "silly names" all the time. Just look at "walkie-talkie" or "willy pete". Plus Doll is one of those acronyms that just gets used as a word, like laser, or taser, or maser.
Bringing up the following examples from Tales from Earthsea:
All of those are too general and reek of complaining.
She / Her
While I agree those aren't examples, the first one isn't general because it was just talking about one scene.
Nightmare Retardant sounds more fitting. For the record, I'm aware those two tropes are similar.
Bringing up the following example from Top of the Lake:
- Narm: Johnno and Robin stripping down naked to have sex in the middle of the woods, while they're in the middle of an investigation, is pretty... random.
Ghomst
Cut for not explaining what’s funny about it as well as for natter
@Anddrix, the Death Flight example is too low context as is.