I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Who were you responding to?
Bringing up the following examples from Cutthroat Island:
- Narm:
- Before blowing away her uncle, Morgan lets out a cringeworthy Pre-Mortem One-Liner.
Morgan: Bad Dawg.
- "Dawg" in itself is a pretty stupid name for a bad guy anyway. You could get away with it for a random henchman, maybe, but for the Big Bad? Not so much.
- The overly glorious and over-the-top music, especially those moments featuring Ominous Latin Chanting or some variant thereof, makes the comparatively mundane onscreen events seem almost parodic. Spoony, in particular, argued it.
- Geena Davis's performance. As Lindsey Ellis puts it, she comes across less as "bloodthirsty pirate queen", more as "Cool Aunt taking some kids to an R-rated movie."
- During the final battle, one of the pirates is actually providing background music using a violin.
Captain Long John Thomas: Bloody hell, this movie has become a self-parody at this point!
- Before blowing away her uncle, Morgan lets out a cringeworthy Pre-Mortem One-Liner.
- Narm Charm: Even at its worst, the film is not difficult to enjoy. Its corny and sometimes weird dialogue, its magnificent and almost literally too good soundtrack, and the mix of gleeful hamming and spirited incompetence by the cast all together can be rather endearing.
- Borderline ZCE. And "cringeworthy" =/= Narm. It has to be funny.
- General example
- General. Weblinks Are Not Examples. Doesn't say what's funny.
- General. Uses a snarky reviewer quote in place of elaboration.
- Is this played for drama? The entry doesn't say. And it's another snarky reviewer quote in place of actually saying how it's an example.
- I'd say this is too bashy. As for whether it's a valid example, Narm Charm is supposed to be something works because of the cheesiness. I guess you could argue that's what this is saying, but it needs a rewrite. Also it's a general example.
Bringing up the following example from The White Lotus:
- Narm: Quinn is meant to have an authentic experience with the Hawaiian rowers. Actual Hawaiian watchers noted that there's nothing about his encounter that is any less spoiled than the other guests' experiences. That it stood out in a show otherwise good at satirizing tourists seeking "magical" transformative events.
Just reads as a Fridge complaint to me, not Narm.
From Smiley:
- Narm: When not Nightmare Fuel, the Smiley mask is this to some. ZCE and Weasel Words
- A lot of the dialogue (especially when they reference internet culture) can be this, as most falls straight into the territory of Totally Radical. It's hard not to cringe just a bit when you hear someone say "I did it for the lulz" in a completely serious tone of voice outside of the internet. Maybe.
- One stand-out moment is Ashley's professor claiming that the above phrase is the "ultimate expression of nihilism." Not sure, but it's not indented properly.
- The entire concept of the film - an EMOTICON is a Slasher Movie villain. Can an ENTIRE concept be Narm? Or does it just depend on execution?
- Can you really take the movie seriously when you see people like Shane Dawson and Toby Turner among the cast? Pure complaining about casting choices, and there's a WTH, Casting Agency? entry for that already.
- A lot of the dialogue (especially when they reference internet culture) can be this, as most falls straight into the territory of Totally Radical. It's hard not to cringe just a bit when you hear someone say "I did it for the lulz" in a completely serious tone of voice outside of the internet. Maybe.
Edited by Shadow8411 on Aug 19th 2021 at 1:10:37 AM
- Hide/cut
- General example
- ZCE
- General
- ZCE, general, redundant with the WTH, Casting Agency? entry. Cut.
kiby :]
x7 So sorry for the late response, but I was referring to Delibirda's response.
Edited by ATricksterArtist on Aug 20th 2021 at 6:53:17 AM
(Don't) take me home.
Bringing up the following examples from Digimon Project 2021:
- Narm: The acting can be a little goofy.
- Pulsemon and Palmon's Tamers sometimes have over-the-top reactions such as grinning a bit too widely.
- When Pulsemon and its Tamer are on the training area, the Tamer's run looks very fake.
- ZCE & general
- General and not funny
- That's closer to Special Effect Failure, but even then I don't think it counts.
I think you can cut all three.
Bringing up the following examples from Born on the Fourth of July:
- Narm: In what is otherwise an emotionally powerful and impacting scene, the following exchange occurs:
Mrs. Kovic (agitated): Don't say 'penis' in this house!
Ron: Penis! Penis! Big fucking erect penis, Mom! (shouting) PENIS! PENIIIS!!!!!- Also, the wheelchair fight between him and Charlie.
Angry babby
The latter is too low on context, but the former can be easily fixed by pointing out in the actual example that the character goes too into Large Ham territory shouting an Inherently Funny Word. (Assuming this is meant to be played for drama.)
Bringing up the following example from Dragonslayer:
- Narm: Hodge. In a perfectly ordinary, conversational voice:
Hodge: Do you know? Someone shot me. But I can still talk. There's something that needs to be done!
Galen: The dragon...
Hodge: NO! No, not the dragon! The master's ashes! Here! Burning water! Find the lake! Throw it in!
Galen: Hodge, what are you doing with this?!
Hodge: Burning! Water! *dies*
Hi, can I get some opinions on these (The Lion King (1994)):
- This pose of Scar during the "Be Prepared" musical number, where it looks like he's is posing for some porno magazine. Dead link
- When Mufasa is saving Simba from the stampede and a wildebeest bumps into them, knocking Simba out of Mufasa's mouth. The sound effect is just hilarious. The sound effect is Mufasa roaring, and there is absolutely nothing laughable about it. Link: 1:55 in this video.
- For some, Mufasa's death was so overdramatic, that it was laughable. "For some" likely stands for "In my opinion" in this case. Mufasa's demise is one of the most famous death scenes in any movie for a reason.
- This pose of Scar
I'm really tempted to cut all three.
- Weblinks Are Not Examples
- No context on what makes the sound effect funny.
- Weasel Words and ZCE
I think you can cut all three.
Angry babby
The only version of Mufasa's death that I've seen treated as Narm is the 2019 version, usually by contrasting it with how the 1997 version is effective.
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I was doing my nightly forum checks, had a jillion tabs open, and was just too lazy to check the year. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 30th 2021 at 10:41:07 AM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Minor nitpick, but the original Lion King was 1994.
Oh no that's OK, I'm really tired right now so I'm not myself.
Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Aug 30th 2021 at 10:44:54 AM
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Bringing up the following example from Basic Instinct 2:
- Narm: Oh boy, where to begin? During his sex scenes, David Morrissey always looks like he's about three seconds away from tossing his lunch. You almost expect him to ask Sharon Stone if she has any Dramamine.
It's kinda low on context. And the first sentence is unnecessary.
Bringing up the following examples from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein:
- Narm:
- Most of the acting, especially given the tonal mismatch in regards to the the source material that the film's adapting.
- The Birth Scene. It's supposed to be scary, but the sight of Victor struggling to pick up the Creature in placenta and constantly slipping is absolutely hilarious.
- Narm Charm: From the abrupt tonal shifts to the campy dialogue, the movie invites a lot more laughs than the creator probably intended. That said, it does have genuinely unsettling moments both in spite and because the hystrionism of the medium.
Bringing up the following examples from Me Before You:
- Narm: Lou giving Will a What the Hell, Hero? speech and storming off in tears when he reveals he never intended to go back on his word about ending his life, while Will pointlessly shouts after her to come back, when you consider that you know Lou must have either A) Awkwardly come back to get Will, who was stranded on the beach in a wheelchair or B) Interrupted Nathan while he was having sex to make him go get Will instead. Either one of these options kind of kills the drama of the moment.
- Narm Charm: Lou's singing. It's so cringey it's absolutely adorable. Will has a similar reaction.
Narm example reads as Fridge complaining. Narm Charm may be fine, not sure.
You don't have to constantly keep trying to prove your point. Large Ham is a trope commonly seen as funny anyway.
(Don't) take me home.