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Narm Cleanup

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Apr 29th 2019 at 3:02:22 PM

A trope for things that fall flat sounds like a great idea; there's plenty of songs that suffer from that problem. I don't really know about how bad the complaining problem is on this site, though idea

WhiteCheddaPikachu A Kitsune Balancing Act from a place upstate where the cats bump into gates Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
A Kitsune Balancing Act
Apr 29th 2019 at 4:00:12 PM

[up]Yeah, I think that would be a good idea, to have a new trope for moments meant to be dramatic or sad, but only end up falling flat rather than being funny, because as far as I know that's not a trope here, and I did think that was just supposed to be Narm before having it clarified. Having that be a separate YMMV might help make cleaning Narm easier.

@nrjxll What you described is Narm Charm.

Sturgeon's Law is too YMMV for page examples, so WHY is it not a YMMV trope!?
chasemaddigan Detailed background characters
Detailed background characters
Apr 29th 2019 at 4:10:55 PM

[up][up] No. No, that sounds like a terrible idea. What constitutes as "falling flat"? Bad acting? The writers copping out on a plot point? Laziness? Continuity errors? A trope dedicated to dramatic moments just "falling flat" is just a magnet for people to complain about scenes they don't like.

Narm has enough misuse along those lines as it is, and a lot of it boils down to petty complaints. Narm has a salvageable premise, something meant to be serious or dramatic comes across as humorous for a variety of reasons. We already have Dethroning Moment of Suck for people to talk about moments in a work that fell flat for them, and countless other YMMV tropes that are far more specific in their scope. A trope about "moments falling flat" is way too general to not be abused in some way.

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A
There is no Planet B
Apr 29th 2019 at 4:52:17 PM

Thanks for the second opinion on the Game of Thrones issue.

I'll delete two of those three. One of them had someone actually add to it some more context, and now it feels like it could be a valid example of this audience reaction — I'm not 100% convinced, but I don't want to come off as a loony obsessed fan. ;-)

I agree that we don't need another audience reaction that invites complaining. 'Moment falling flat' sounds too general that anything that doesn't sit with you well can be an example, and creators are people, too, so there will always be mistakes and poor execution in works of fiction.

nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Apr 29th 2019 at 5:38:34 PM

[up][up][up]Narm Charm is also kinda a mess, honestly. It seems to be used variously either as 'camp' or Narm Done Well.

Apr 29th 2019 at 5:40:21 PM

[up]x6: Actually, we only want to record examples of Audience Reactions (which Narm is, it's Not a Trope) when they actually cause said reaction in a notable amount of people. If nearly the whole fandom loved a certain scene, it would be acceptable to get rid of a Narm entry about it.

Edited by Zuxtron on Apr 29th 2019 at 8:40:36 AM

WhiteCheddaPikachu A Kitsune Balancing Act from a place upstate where the cats bump into gates Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
A Kitsune Balancing Act
Apr 29th 2019 at 6:21:24 PM

Well okay, I see your point about it being a bad idea and I don't really want anymore complaining either, then I think someone would have to fix the description of Narm, and then specifically point out it's only for things that ended up unintentionally humorous and nothing else

Sturgeon's Law is too YMMV for page examples, so WHY is it not a YMMV trope!?
Apr 29th 2019 at 9:30:51 PM

Alright, I already removed an example about this scene because it's not funny. At worst it just falls flat. But now it's back. Spoilers for Avengers: Endgame: In the final battle, a team of heroines assemble to escort Captain Marvel and the Infinity Gauntlet to the quantum tunnel. The problem is, aside from the fact that Carol is the last person on the heroes' side that needs an escort, the group not only forms on the spot, it consists of every heroine in the MCU. The sheer improbability that a group of ten supposedly random heroes would all be women makes it rather obvious that the point of the scene was to showcase the franchise's strong female characters. The lack of subtlety as well as the fact that only two of them have any meaningful appearance and contribution to the plot (Past Gamora and Present Nebula) make the moment feel comedic instead, like a cheesy parody of the intended message. That said, it does also have a Narm Charm feel to it, as mentioned below.

It was readded with the reason "This sequence is many things, subtle is not one of them. Also, while it does rate as narm, if it genuinely didn't qualify then the narm charm entry would need to be deleted too. It has to be the former to count as the latter, that's how the trope works."

The first sentence is referring to removing some gushing about the scene.

I don't think it counts as Narm, because it isn't FUNNY. Saying it's "laughable" doesn't count. Thoughts?

nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Apr 30th 2019 at 2:41:23 AM

...Hello, comics movie misogynists, I've sure missed you. In addition to that and what you've already noted, I'd probably add as yet another reason to cut that I feel like the scene already has an intentional bit of humor by including Mantis, who has no appreciable combat capability, among the group.

(TBH, I think what needs answering is less whether to cut than it is whether a mod should look at the editor(s) in question.)

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Apr 30th 2019 at 8:12:16 AM

It obviously needs to be cut. The troper in question is edit warring, so that'll be handled as well. Umm... link to where this example was added, please?

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 30th 2019 at 11:12:41 AM

TV Tropes Changelog -- keep track of updates to the site!
Apr 30th 2019 at 1:31:34 PM

Here you go. To be fair, the troper who added the original entry was iamnoone and the person who added it back was tdwally, so it may be they genuinely didn't realize it was removed for a reason, especially since it's phrased differently.

I shall remove the example regardless.

Silverblade2 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
May 3rd 2019 at 1:40:13 AM

From YMMV.Sonic The Hedgehog 2019

  • Narm:
    • Ben Schwartz' very adult sounding voice doesn't quite mesh well with Sonic's child-like design.note 
    • The use of Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise" in the trailer, a slow-paced, moody song about an inner-city gangster's regrets about his violent life of crime just does not fit with Sonic.

For the second example, I wonder if there's not an intentional use of Soundtrack Dissonance.

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A
There is no Planet B
May 3rd 2019 at 12:36:06 PM

[up] Both sound like misuse. (I'm not familiar with the work.)

Libraryseraph Take my revolution! from Canada Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
Take my revolution!
May 3rd 2019 at 12:38:47 PM

I'm surprised the Sonic movie YMMV page hasn't been locked to prevent this kind of thing

Edited by Libraryseraph on May 3rd 2019 at 3:39:34 PM

Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination
May 3rd 2019 at 1:25:12 PM

I'm fairly certain we're not supposed to have {{Narm)) examples for works that haven't been released yet.

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A
There is no Planet B
May 3rd 2019 at 3:06:51 PM

[up] Aha, it's an unreleased work. I think these are not supposed to have any examples on YMMV tab. It's for audience reactions after all.

Should be locked, if it causes problems.

[down] Thanks for the info.

Edited by XFllo on May 3rd 2019 at 7:52:06 AM

May 3rd 2019 at 3:43:29 PM

[up] and [up][up] It was decided that unreleased works can have YMMV pages, and Narm is not on No Recent Examples, Please!, so having Narm for an unreleased work is not inherently forbidden. Sometimes, a trailer can try to present a certain scene seriously, but end up being unintentionally funny instead, which would be a valid case of Narm.

That said, neither of the Sonic examples seem to be correct, so I'd get rid of them.

May 9th 2019 at 9:36:09 PM

Alright, that same entry for Avengers: Endgame is back, written differently again, presumably by another person who didn't see that it was intentionally removed. It's probably just going to keep getting added back at this rate. Thoughts?

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A
There is no Planet B
May 10th 2019 at 5:02:22 AM

[up] Consensus here is to delete that entry, so feel free to remove it again — with edit reason and link to this discussion, so it's clear it's not you who is edit-warring.

The person who re-added the entry deserves a PM about the situation. I'd play nice and took the chance (though it's probably only a slim chance) that it's a new person adding the example who didn't check the page's history.

But mods should probably investigate. It's likely it's somebody's sock poppet.

May 12th 2019 at 6:47:57 AM

Found these on One Day:

May 12th 2019 at 7:11:56 AM

[up] That's certainly misuse, it doesn't try to explain how the example was meant to be dramatic or serious, nor how it ends up being funny instead.

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A
There is no Planet B
May 21st 2019 at 11:32:24 AM

Narm.Game Of Thrones, once again. Spoilers for the series finale.

    spoilers inside 
  • The Great Council to determine the new executive of Westeros near the end of the finale beggars belief. Tyrion, who has been in a dungeon awaiting execution, is alternately berated over his treasonous acts while also being given the time to unilaterally convince all the lords present that Bran should be king. There is zero squabbling over this choice, other than Sansa abstaining from the vote and seceding on the North's behalf with one sentence...once again, with zero squabbling; one wonders why the other kingdoms, especially the equally culturally unique Iron Islands and Dorne, don't take this opportunity to do the same. Jon's fate is treated as a potential war-starter, so he ends up being sent to the Wall. If you're paying close enough attention, you'll notice that the Starks now basically rule the whole continent between their nominal sovereignty over the now-Six Kingdoms and the North and Jon's significant soft power among the Night's Watch and wildlings beyond the Wall. None of the other lords have a problem with that? While it's reasonable to assume significant upheavals following Daenerys's failed campaign, these changes to the status quo happen in one sitting without any of these lords arguing their own interests. The scene presents a bizarre, sterile harmony so uncharacteristic of the country's political culture and the show's established tone that the scene is unintentionally hilarious.

  • Personally, I don't see it as something that was supposed to be dramatic with pathos but failed and ended up hilarious instead.
  • I follow the fandom and memes from this show quite a lot, and this hasn't come up as laughable anywhere else as far as I can tell.
  • It's Wall of Text, but admittedly after I deleted a previous entry from the same editor that was on the other hand almost without context.
  • It reads to me as complaining from someone who is not satisfied with the ending in general.
  • Also, it's inaccurate because there was some squabbling.

Thanks for your input.

ArgonianLorekeeper See ya later. from Colony 9 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
See ya later.
May 24th 2019 at 2:48:17 AM

[up]I don't think that really sounds like an unintentionally funny moment. It reads more like the editor wanted to complain about a plot development they didn't like and capped it off with saying it's hilarious in order to try and justify the entry.

You can find me here now.
May 24th 2019 at 6:03:07 AM

[up] I agree. It just reads as complaining with the phrase "unintentionally hilarious" shoehorned in. I don't get the impression from reading it what's supposed to be funny.

May 26th 2019 at 11:00:40 AM

Bringing up these examples from the Other folder on Narm.Sonic The Hedgehog:

  • Rouge the Bat in every appearance, especially for her... bouncing... In her first appearance, half of us were busy laughing at how unrealistically she moved; the other half found it... interesting.
    • It gets better: in one of the special missions in Sonic Generations, Rouge accompanies you as a support character against Eggman's robots that would normally smack you down if you approached. How does she help? By firing projectiles of her sex appeal as hearts at the enemies to leave them vulnerable. Better yet, this works, meaning Eggman either programmed his robots to have libidos or the animals trapped inside very much have cognizance in this regard.
  • The 3DS version of Sonic Generations attempts to convey the plot of the console versions to the best of its ability. Emphasis on "attempts." There had to be a better way to convey destroying Eggman's robots or making a Heroic Sacrifice than having 3D models slide past what appear to be trading cards.
    • The face Classic Sonic makes when he's surprised. He just stands there with a gaping mouth, wide-eyed (keep in mind Sonic's two pupil, one eyeball design) stare.
    • The battle the two Sonics are supposed to have with Eggman before the final boss is butchered in this version. The game portrays the battle with still images, cheap visual effects, and text boxes. It gets especially confusing when Tails enters the fight.
  • Sonic and the Secret Rings gives us Erazor Djinn's final form: Alf Layla Wa Layla, mainly its voice. It's meant to sound echoey and distorted to show how powerful he's become, but the effect used for it is just awful. He ends up sounding like a demonic chipmunk as opposed to a monstrous abomination.
  • In Sonic Shuffle, Lumina and Void's constant angsting.
    Void: You don't need me? Then... Why was I... BOOOAAARRRUUUGGGHHHNNURRRRRRRRRGH?
    • The above is made even better when you see that the weird black light he emanates as he begins to go One-Winged Angel is shown coming out of his crotch.
  • The memetically dark line from Zor, "I long for Death's cold embrace."
  • Also from Lost World, there's Zazz's line "I DREAM ABOUT POUNDING HIS SORRY BLUE BUTT!", which many fans found, uh, distracting, to say the least.
  • Emerl's death in Sonic X is an very emotional scene except for the fact in the Japanese version, at one point Cheese's crying sounds like a squeaky toy.
  • Seeing Big the Cat show up in anything past his missions in Sonic Adventure. Those who've grown accustomed to his Simpleton Voice and irritatingly slow movement won't help but involuntarily chuckle whenever he shows up even in dramatic moments.
  • Sonic and the Black Knight has some spectacular moments of this too. In that game, when the characters die by a bottomless pit/lava, most of them simply yell or grunt. Most of them are not Lancelot/Shadow, who screams this with the most hilarious delivery:
    Lancelot/Shadow: I HAVE FAILED!!
  • The Sonic 25th Anniversary Party. Those who had to watch the event on stream had to deal with audio issues through out the most part of it (one segment where the host began to talk about the future plans for Sonic was left entirely mute because of the audio issues) and video quality problems. Apart from that, the event was filled with awkward and cringeworthy moments. The event will probably go down in history as one of the most unintentionally hilarious gaming events ever.
  • In a refreshing change of pace, Sonic Mania has almost no Narm. One notable exception, however, is Super Sonic's idle pose, which has him tensing his muscles and vibrating intensely.
  • Most of the official western art from the Genesis era, as its off-model-ness makes it So Bad, It's Good. But the worst/best example is probably this... thing that passes off for Knuckles.
  • Similarly, many stories from Archie Comics' Sonic the Hedgehog are this as a result of the comic's infamous perchance for hilariously bad art and bizarre dialogue. Case in point... There are even blogs dedicated to documenting So Bad, It's Good panels from the comic.

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