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Narm Cleanup

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I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."

I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:

In CGI movies or video games unrealistic movements or facial expressions may result in Narm. Dated special effects during dramatic scenes can cause Narm for younger audience members who were raised on nothing less convincing than the Phantom Menace. Totally Radical dialog in cartoons or commercials pandering to children can also be a rich source of Narm. Even a good performance in a bad movie can evoke Narm if the actor's performance isn't enough to save the scene.
That last sentence I feel just confuses the whole thing. It makes it sound like absolutely anything can count as Narm, no matter if it works in context or not.

Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.

Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.

I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:

  • The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
    • The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
    • What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
  • The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
    • Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
    • Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
    • How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
    • The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
    • Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
  • The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
  • Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
    • The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
    • The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
    • Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
  • The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
  • After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
  • "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
  • Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
  • Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
  • Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
  • The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
    Riot: Venom...Get in the rocket!
    Venom: No! We won't let you destroy this world!
    Riot: Then die!
Nitpicking?
  • Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
  • Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
  • Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
  • Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
  • Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.

Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.

Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM

azul120 Since: Jan, 2001
#426: Nov 18th 2020 at 2:43:03 PM

OT: Can there be a trope for unintentional hilarity that isn't necessarily over a dramatic moment? A supertrope, perhaps?

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#427: Nov 18th 2020 at 2:45:01 PM

[up] Maybe. I think some of us have also floated a more general "moment that falls flat" trope.

azul120 Since: Jan, 2001
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#430: Nov 18th 2020 at 4:49:05 PM

That just sounds like an excuse for complaining.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#431: Nov 18th 2020 at 5:16:29 PM

I think the current item is (or could be) more broad than it is. Many people use "dramatic" to mean "not comedic / meant to be taken seriously" already, so as long as the item is along the lines of "a moment meant to be taken seriously is instead seen as unintentionally funny" I think that's fine. It's when people list obvious jokes or just use the page as an outlet for Fridge Logic-style complaining that it goes off topic.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#432: Nov 18th 2020 at 6:24:19 PM

[up] Not to mention the description uses "serious" and "dramatic" interchangeably, so that's what it means in the context of narm.

azul120 Since: Jan, 2001
#433: Nov 19th 2020 at 2:37:56 AM

What I meant wasn't a moment that fails to be serious, but rather a moment that could also be either be mundane or even light-hearted turn out to somehow be unintentionally hilarious for some reason.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#434: Nov 19th 2020 at 6:48:58 AM

That doesn't really contradict what we said, which is basically that the trope can be as broad as "It's explicitly not played for laughs, but it's still funny."

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
ScarletNebula Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#435: Nov 19th 2020 at 9:11:40 AM

On It Chapter 2's YMMV

Henry stabbing Eddie in the face is ruined by the latter asking why he did it. It’s pretty clear why he did it Eddie. He’s trying to kill you.

I don't think this works, it's pretty obvious Eddie is in shock cause ya know, he thought Henry Bowers was dead and all.

MisterApes-a-lot Since: Mar, 2018
#436: Nov 19th 2020 at 9:57:06 AM

[up] Yeah that seems like misuse to me.

azul120 Since: Jan, 2001
#437: Nov 19th 2020 at 4:16:28 PM

[up][up][up]Because I was the one who added the Steven Universe example that was just deleted because it didn't fall under "serious moments that end up being funny instead".

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#438: Nov 19th 2020 at 4:45:06 PM

Which example was it?

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
azul120 Since: Jan, 2001
#439: Nov 19th 2020 at 7:56:14 PM

Where Sadie sings in "Sadie's Song", and the butt side her pants looks like a face. "Sadie's butt sings" is a low-key meme.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#440: Nov 19th 2020 at 8:00:04 PM

See, that's not even a moment falling flat in a hilarious manner. That's just a briefly funny visual. I never even noticed that when I watched the scene. IT might be a meme, but it doesn't kill the intended nature of the scene like Narm is supposed to do.

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 19th 2020 at 11:00:35 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
azul120 Since: Jan, 2001
#441: Nov 19th 2020 at 9:20:45 PM

It's still unintentionally funny though. It just doesn't impede upon a serious moment.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#442: Nov 19th 2020 at 10:55:55 PM

It has to impede upon a serious moment, or at least a non-comedic one. While I do think Narm is much broader than some people define it, I still don't think it should be as broad as "every scene in a show that looks unintentionally funny when you pause or look at it a certain way." The moment should be distractingly funny.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Anddrix Since: Oct, 2014
#443: Nov 20th 2020 at 2:10:13 AM

Bringing up the following example from Batman Begins:

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#444: Nov 20th 2020 at 2:10:37 PM

That might be valid, but it needs more context as to why he looks like he's "at a rave" so rewrite or comment out.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Anddrix Since: Oct, 2014
#445: Nov 20th 2020 at 7:55:47 PM

Bringing up the following example from Batman Beyond:

  • Narm: The show has a very moody and abstract theme music that serves to introduce the audience to the city of Gotham in the future. In the middle of it, there's a random cut to Terry's friends clubbing that's so far removed from the rest of the imagery in terms of tone that it can be humorously jarring.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#446: Nov 20th 2020 at 8:11:17 PM

That sounds valid to me. Unintentional Mood Whiplash is a common way something can be unintentionally amusing.

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 20th 2020 at 11:11:42 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Anddrix Since: Oct, 2014
#447: Nov 20th 2020 at 9:18:11 PM

Bringing up the following examples from Alien:

  • Narm:
    • Depending on your sensibilities, the overly genital-based based designs of the aliens can serve to make them look scary, or just plain silly and hard to take seriously as antagonists.
  • Narm Charm: There were plans, believe it or not, to make an animated kid's cartoon about Aliens vs Predator. While it never went through, parts of it did make it into a comic book series made for the Kenner action figures, which had Ripley and most of the marines from the second film surviving Acheron, and subsequently going on GI-Joe style missions to battle Aliens throughout the galaxy, wearing brightly colored uniforms, sprouting endless one-liners note  and wielding goofy, cartoonish weapons (Ripley wields up a flamethrower that's bigger than she is). One predator even appears to be wearing nipple cannons. When compared to the dark and gritty terror of the film, the whole series is hilarious (read it here).

  • Narm:
    • When Parker and Lambert desperately try to wrestle Ash off of Ripley, there is this awkward moment where Ash grabs Parker's chest. It has the effect of Ash giving Parker a killer purple-nurple, though it does show that Ash is stronger than most humans.
    • When Ripley boards the escape shuttle, and finds the Alien in it. It appears to be napping in an empty nook on the wall, and it's reaching towards her without properly attacking reads like it's stirred, but not fully woken. At one point, it even slowly extends its iconic mouth tongue as if yawning. Until it actually starts attempting to attack Ripley, it's unclear whether it's stuck there.
    • The (thankfully deleted) extended opening, in which Kane stands in the breakfast nook and cheerfully namedrops every single character as they sit at the table. It's just as kitsch and embarrassing as it sounds. Ridley Scott must've thought so too, because he only filmed John Hurt's side of the scene before shelving it.
    • Lambert's slurred "Oh my god!" during the chestburster scene.
    • The baby Alien just zooming away after the chestburster scene. It's so fast and goes at such a straight line that it's comical.
  • Narm Charm:
    • The Alien's phallic head. For as blatantly Freudian as it looks, it's become an accepted part of the creature that most people have considered scary nonetheless.
    • The chestburster reveal manages to be scary in spite of some shaky effects due to the sheer gross out factor. There is a reason why the scene is so memorable.
    • Ash trying to kill Ripley by jamming a magazine down her throat is utterly silly on some level; it's not exactly clear how it will even kill her. But the performances from Holm and Weaver are strong enough to make it the disturbing pseudo-rape scene Scott intended.

azul120 Since: Jan, 2001
#448: Nov 21st 2020 at 6:38:23 PM

My example was a non-comedic one that distracts from the scene.

dsneybuf (Not-So-Newbie)
#449: Nov 22nd 2020 at 8:35:27 AM

Does this proposed entry for YMMV.The Mandalorian use the term correctly?

  • Narm: "Wherever I go, he goes" sounds more silly than sweet to viewers who get the jingle for the My Buddy doll stuck in their heads afterwards.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#450: Nov 22nd 2020 at 8:48:06 AM

I think the general stance is that it’s not narm if it relies on knowledge of another work.

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