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Narm Cleanup

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I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."

I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:

In CGI movies or video games unrealistic movements or facial expressions may result in Narm. Dated special effects during dramatic scenes can cause Narm for younger audience members who were raised on nothing less convincing than the Phantom Menace. Totally Radical dialog in cartoons or commercials pandering to children can also be a rich source of Narm. Even a good performance in a bad movie can evoke Narm if the actor's performance isn't enough to save the scene.
That last sentence I feel just confuses the whole thing. It makes it sound like absolutely anything can count as Narm, no matter if it works in context or not.

Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.

Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.

I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:

  • The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
    • The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
    • What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
  • The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
    • Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
    • Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
    • How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
    • The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
    • Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
  • The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
  • Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
    • The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
    • The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
    • Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
  • The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
  • After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
  • "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
  • Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
  • Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
  • Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
  • The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
    Riot: Venom...Get in the rocket!
    Venom: No! We won't let you destroy this world!
    Riot: Then die!
Nitpicking?
  • Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
  • Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
  • Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
  • Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
  • Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.

Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.

Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM

MisterApes-a-lot Since: Mar, 2018
#2951: Oct 10th 2024 at 9:21:25 PM

I was just about to bring up the Megalopolis examples, myself.

I agree with your reasoning for the most part. I think the "Entitles me?" moment could probably stay, since I have seen people make fun of it/find it funny. Though I wouldn't object to a less exaggerated rewrite for the transcription. For reference, this is the moment.

That weird moment of Wow wanting to be called "Auntie Wow" doesn't say what's funny, just awkward, so I'll cut that as well. Maybe it could be moved to Fetish Retardant, if it was meant to be titillating, which I have no idea if it was.

There's also these newly added examples:

  • Cesar's Nobel-winning building material is "Megalon"... which coincidentally shares its name with a giant lightning beetle that once fought Godzilla. Not a moment. And "this reminds me of a different thing" misuse.
  • A segment of the movie is supposed to have a live performer in the theater having a convesation with Cesar. Cesar's face is shrunk to match a live performer and maintain some sort of eye contact. The problem is that not all movie theaters (or performances) will shell out for a live performer (never mind if the movie wasn't a bomb). Meaning that for many a showing, people just see the video shrink, and Cesar have half a conversation with no one for several minutes, with no context as to what is just happening. The experience has been described as rather surreal. However, later showings included voice-over for the person meant to be talking to Cesar, which alleviated the problem. Not funny, just weird and awkward.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#2952: Oct 12th 2024 at 3:02:46 PM

[up] I agree with you on those.

Any other opinions on the Megalopolis examples?

I removed these from YMMV.Descendants The Rise Of Red:

  • Narm:
    • Jack of Diamonds in the beginning of his lines in "Red" sings "Soldiers at the ready?" sounding very official and powerful, but then his next line "The queen's not very friendly!" is sung in a completely different tone, making him sound like he either forgot the line or was rushing to get it in on beat.
    • Chloe's wigs tend to change length and style from shot to shot, something that was immediately noticed and mocked by fans on social media. One minute it looks totally natural - the next minute it's comically large.

I moved the second on to WTH, Costuming Department? because it is more about a costuming error then a dramatic moment that becomes funny. The first one I removed because having watch the film, the group as a whole, including Jack, are played as jokes, with even Red mocking them through out. That said I thought I would get a second opinion on the first one. Add back or keep gone?

Edited by Bullman on Oct 12th 2024 at 5:03:51 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
MisterApes-a-lot Since: Mar, 2018
#2953: Oct 12th 2024 at 5:05:00 PM

I say leave the first bullet off the page.

Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
#2954: Oct 15th 2024 at 3:07:11 PM

For YMMV/TheFreshPrinceOfBelAir

  • Narm: While Will's rant in Papa's Got A Brand New Excuse was the show's biggest Tear Jerker, there's one little blemish when Will suddenly shouts "to hell with him". The delivery of that line sounded more like Will's comical freakouts than a genuine one.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#2955: Oct 15th 2024 at 3:12:46 PM

[up] Isn't that considered one of the most serious moments in the show? I have never once seen anyone say that it was funny.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#2956: Oct 15th 2024 at 3:19:19 PM

This is just a troper trying to shoehorn complaining.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
#2957: Oct 15th 2024 at 3:19:53 PM

Are we sure it's a Narm as well. It's not even funny and as said nobody laughed when he did that. I remove it from the page.

Edited by Echidna on Oct 15th 2024 at 6:20:03 AM

Ayumi-chan 3rd happiest man in Connecticut from Iacon City (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
3rd happiest man in Connecticut
#2958: Oct 16th 2024 at 7:29:29 PM

Found this on YMMV.Metaphor Re Fantazio, which doesn't really explain what's funny''' (at least to me):

She/Her | Currently cleaning: N/A
Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
#2959: Oct 16th 2024 at 7:34:37 PM

This doesn't sound unintentionally funny to me. So I can say remove it as it is not a Narm.

MB74 Since: Feb, 2024 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#2960: Oct 16th 2024 at 7:50:55 PM

[up][up] The “Fantasy is dead” part by itself is pretty iffy, but the brackets part is way too common in games to actually matter

I’d say cut it.

I’ll lift my face, and run to the sunlight.
GoSweetToday The Contract Freeloader from New York Since: Aug, 2024 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
The Contract Freeloader
#2961: Oct 18th 2024 at 6:15:43 AM

So I was checking the SATAM Sonic YMMV Page and found some entries that have been irking me for a while, since most of them funny don't sound funny:

  • Narm: The second season, while some might say was stronger in narrative, wasn't above moments of cheesiness.
    • Uncle Chuck's reveal that the roboticised Mobians are still conscious but have no control over their actions loses all horrific implications due to nonchalantly he mentions it. It makes being forcibly transformed into a mechanical slave seem like stubbing your toe. Some complaining about how it falls flat.
    • In the two-parter "Blast to the Past", the catalyst which causes Sonic to bemoan the war against Robotnik is the loss of two freedom fighters. Specifically, a generic horse and bear. It doesn't help that these two characters only appear in this episode and are never seen or heard from again. Yet Sonic takes their loss exceedingly hard. Nitpicking, falls flat misuse, and some natter here.
    • In "Sonic Conversion", Bunnie is de-roboticised, but abruptly changes back to her cyborg form. When she does so, she inexplicably disappears in a cloud of green smoke, dramatic music plays, and Sally frantically calls her name. The next shot is of Bunnie sitting on the floor with a dissonantly deadpan expression. Upon realising that she's back to being a cyborg, Christine Cavanaugh gives out a small whine which sounds more like she dropped her ice cream. Keep.
    • "The Doomsday Project" makes it abundantly clear that all of the Freedom Fighters across Mobius will band together to fight Robotnik. Half of the main cast stay at home and all the other Freedom Fighters are instantly captured, ultimately leaving everything up to Sonic and Sally. For the umpteenth time. Complaining again.

Any opinions on this?

Sometimes the risk is worth taking before the fall.
MisterApes-a-lot Since: Mar, 2018
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#2963: Oct 18th 2024 at 1:16:12 PM

[up][up]The first doesn't sound funny, and the second and fourth are straight-up complaining.

TheGrayFox ....Phenomenal from A Lovecraftian fishing village Since: Sep, 2011
....Phenomenal
#2964: Oct 24th 2024 at 2:12:18 AM

Shadow Generations has these two examples:

  • Shadow's Doom Surf power is exactly what you'd expect; he's using the nightmarish Doom mutation he's harnessing as a surfboard. Not a moment. Also, the fact it's called "Surf" seems pretty obvious that it looking like a surfboard is intentional.

  • Mephiles describes his fight with Shadow as the "Ultimate Game of Shadow Tag!" without showing any shame whatsoever over that horrible pun. The pun is intentional, it being lame is just "thing falls flat".

Any objections to cutting these?

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
GoSweetToday The Contract Freeloader from New York Since: Aug, 2024 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
The Contract Freeloader
#2965: Oct 24th 2024 at 9:02:11 AM

Cut them.

Sometimes the risk is worth taking before the fall.
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
#2967: Oct 24th 2024 at 10:34:36 AM

[up][up][up]You can remove them and they for sure need to go.

Ayumi-chan 3rd happiest man in Connecticut from Iacon City (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
3rd happiest man in Connecticut
#2968: Oct 24th 2024 at 10:53:46 PM

Found this on YMMV.Blue Period:

  • Narm: The Latin American Spanish dub, big time: The dub was done in Colombia by Centauro Comunicaciones, the same studio known for their also very divisive dubs of Rurouni Kenshin, Ultraman, Tokyo Mew Mew and others, and, like those series, the dub incurs in the same mistakes, like wooden acting, bad translations, being unable to pronounce correctly some words and names, having thick accents, etc, causing the Latin American audience to quickly disregard the animated adaptation.note 

This is not describing anything unintentionally funny. It's complaining about a foreign dub being bad.

She/Her | Currently cleaning: N/A
Acebrock He/Him from So-Cal Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
Ayumi-chan 3rd happiest man in Connecticut from Iacon City (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
3rd happiest man in Connecticut
#2970: Oct 24th 2024 at 11:30:06 PM

[up] It has been wiped.

She/Her | Currently cleaning: N/A
Dramatic Since: Jun, 2012
#2971: Oct 30th 2024 at 2:30:52 PM

From Freddy Fazbear's Pizzeria Simulator:

  • Narm: In the Insanity Ending, Henry apparently has the main character lobotomized, and while it's mostly played as black comedy, it's also meant to illustrate the fact that Henry is a ruthless character even if he is a Big Good. That being said, the concept is so nonsensical it comes off as just straight up stupid, since lobotomy isn't practiced anywhere in the United States or Utah (which is where the series takes place). To make matters worse, it's heavily implied that you play as Michael Afton in this game, and that Henry knows who you are... and it's established in Sister Location that Michael can survive without internal organs, meaning that lobotomy wouldn't even work on him. You have to wonder what Scott was thinking by including this part.

I am going to vouch for this not being valid due to the scene clearly being intended to be comedic. Here's the moment in question; all the endings are told in this an old-timey corporate video presentation style that is clearly meant to be taken as tongue in cheek. This entry also massively exaggerates how important the lobotomy thing is. In-context, it's obviously just referring to a generalised idea of the character being sent to Bedlam House, and is not suggesting that the character got a literal lobotomy.

DeadlyEspresso Louisiana Heartstopper from your local Popeyes Since: Apr, 2023
Louisiana Heartstopper
#2972: Oct 30th 2024 at 2:34:48 PM

[up]If the scene was more likely Bathos instead of coming of as narmy... then I do suggest that the example be removed for misuse.

I sadly doubt he would like Popeyes, though...
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#2973: Nov 8th 2024 at 3:44:15 AM

This is on the YMMV page for The Hobbit:

  • Narm Charm:
    • To some, the beginning of the story can feel a bit...narmy, as it was written for children, and not as exciting as the darker sequel. Tolkien himself was disappointed with how this part was written. However, the story gets increasingly better as it goes on, culminating in the wonderful encounter with Smaug and the devastating battle.
    • After the success of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien considered re-writing The Hobbit to match the more serious tone of its sequel, along with fixing a few of the inconsistencies between the two. After completing a few chapters, he asked a friend (we don't know who) to read it. Her response was, "This is wonderful, but it's not The Hobbit." Tolkien decided to leave the Narm Charm intact and never completed the revision. The re-written chapters and notes can be read in The History of the Hobbit.
The first section just seems to be 'A story written for children has writing for children and people are surprised the writing is not more like the darker sequel'. That doesn't seem to be Narm Charm. Besides, it doesn't explain how that writing has charm (which, given the continued popularity of the book, I imagine for most people it does), instead just saying 'it gets better'. The second section seems a bit like a shoe horn. It seems to equate light-hearted writing for children with Narm Charm by saying that a friend of Tolkien telling him to not make the story darker means they were talking about the Narm Charm. Being light-hearted does not make something Narm Charm.

ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#2975: Nov 8th 2024 at 5:37:27 AM

[up][up]Yeah, "twee and childlike" (in a work for children) may not be to everyone's taste, but it's not narm either.


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