"No Recent Examples Please" cleanup

That seems like an absurdly excessive waiting period for no reason. Why do we need nearly an entire year to determine whether a character has been successfully "rescued" or not?

The trope requires characters to have been The Scrappy or one of its variants. Under current rules, you can't be TheScrappy in less than six months.

That's our starting point. How much would you add to that for the work to redefine them and the audience to react?

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 27th 2023 at 2:15:06 PM

Nothing. Because I don't think people need more than six months to determine whether a character has been rescued or not. Anything longer is just delaying the inevitable.

Hell, I'm even of the belief that six months waiting periods in general is way too long for anything, but that's a whole other topic.

That does not seem to be the prevailing view on the Scrappy cleanup thread.

More generally, episodic troping and the rush to add examples do seem to be a recurring issue for cleanup.

If we're not going to find a compromise option on this, I'd suggest we give it a day or two for folk to share other views, then add it to the crowner (e.g. Thurs 29th?) and see what the Troper consensus tells us.

That's a good plan.

If six months is too much, then how about three months after the event that resulted in their rescuing?

Of course, that also includes the six month waiting period for a character to be classified as a Scrappy in the first place.

Yeah, that was my thinking for the original nine month proposition (not six months for The Scrappy plus another six or nine)

Considerations for the Rescued from the Scrappy Heap wait.

• Does Rescued only apply if it was (likely/possibly) in response to complaints as opposed to planned prior? If so Production Lead Time take 1 year after so Rescued should be 6 months wait + 6 for Scrappy (first hear of complaints).
• Most Scrappy examples are cut if they get Rescued, Scrappy-Doo and Jar Jar Banks are exceptions because they were hated such it remains part of their character perception. Would the Rescued waiting period be the threshold that allows characters to quality as Scrappy and Rescued (3 months seems short for that)?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 27th 2023 at 5:26:30 AM

I think both of those go a bit beyond NREP.

• I believe Rescued is all about the change in fan reaction and doesn't try to analyse the creator's intent (unlike The Scrappy itself, which required the character to be unintentionally hated).
• The usual rule is that we don't list tropes and subtropes for the same example. Not sure if Scrappy and Jar-Jar have been specifically agreed as exceptions.

Yeah, it's about the change in fan reaction.

Just to clarify, I still think it should be six months, I was just proposing something different if that was too much.

I still think that Chuck Cunningham Syndrome needs to be NREP in order to ensure that the character probably isn't coming back.

As for the length, I think it should go like this:

For episodic works without seasons: Two years after the character's previous appearance/mention (to match the NREP waiting period for Quietly Cancelled)

For episodic works with seasons: Two seasons after the character's previous appearance/mention.

For non-episodic works: Two sequels after the character's previous appearance/mention (since a character missing from only one sequel is Sequel Non-Entity).

One user proposed that it should be like Later-Installment Weirdness in that examples aren't allowed until the work concludes, as it's the only way to be 100% certain that the character never returned. I reluctantly agreed at the time, but since we live in an era of constant sequels, revivals, etc., fewer works are ending for good and this would likely result in a mass reduction of examples. Plus, I think it's safe to assume that (in most cases), if a character hasn't been seen or mentioned in several years, they probably aren't coming back. If the character does return at some point, they'd simply be removed.

And of course, all of the above wouldn't apply if Word of God confirms that the character has been dropped for good.

Edited by thecarolinabull01 on Jun 28th 2023 at 9:25:00 AM

The Bus Came Back covers Chuck Cunningham Syndrome as well as Put on a Bus, and already has NREP for the CCS scenario, so perhaps we can use the same? It's a little shorter there, though:

Rescued from the Scrappy Heap has now been added to the crowner. Given the interest in this one, I'll post to the Scrappy cleanup thread as well as ATT.

Rescued from the Scrappy Heap (9 months for characters who were The Scrappy or related tropes, such as Replacement Scrappy, Damsel Scrappy or Ethnic Scrappy. 1 month for gaming characters who were a High-Tier Scrappy or Low-Tier Letdown due to game balance): to prevent knee jerk reactions and allow fan perceptions to change. Measured from the character introduction or the point they become annoying - The Scrappy already has 6 month NREP, this adds 3 months after that for a rescue. Discussed here, here and here. Added to crowner June 29, 2023.

Considering the range of opinions so far, if folk are downvoting this and have a preference that's not already covered in the thread, it'd be good to hear the feedback.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 29th 2023 at 12:44:31 PM

I used the The Bus Came Back as a basis, but I still think one season or one year for CCS is a bit low since I know of numerous characters who were absent for one season only to come back.

Two years matches up with Quietly Cancelled.

Edited by thecarolinabull01 on Jun 29th 2023 at 10:32:49 AM

How does Rescued from the Scrappy Heap apply if the character is in a franchise and is rescued in a different installment from the one they initially became The Scrappy in?

The usual approach seems to be that if they happen in different works, one lists The Scrappy and the work that redeems them lists Rescued from the Scrappy Heap.

That's how Star Wars currently handles Jar Jar Binks, for example. Probably more of a Scrappy cleanup thread question than NREP, though.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 29th 2023 at 4:31:59 PM

So if a character is rescued in a sequel movie/show that was what made them a Scrappy in the first place, does that mean the waiting period would only apply for 3 months?

So, if our hypothetical hated character appears in two works...

• They're eligible for The Scrappy six months after the first work releases. This is the existing NREP rule for that trope.
• They would be eligible for Rescued from the Scrappy Heap nine months after the first work releases, three months after eligibility for The Scrappy, regardless of when the second work releases.

The clock for both starts when the character is introduced or becomes irritating, so release dates for subsequent works don't matter so much.

Hypothetically, as it's a YMMV reaction trope, they could go from Scrappy to Rescued from the Scrappy Heap without any need for the second work to be released, purely because fandom's collectively changed its mind. We're just allowing time to judge that shifting reaction.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 29th 2023 at 5:16:18 PM

Hanging Judge got mentioned in April, as it had been flagged in the NRLEP thread but NREP was considered a better option.

~Miss Conduct suggested a 100 year NREP for Real Life examples only.

That lets us keep the historical examples and avoid the more recent, controversial ones that stray into ROCEJ.

Any objection to adding it to the crowner?

I'm still for that plan.

The original sponsor of Truce Trickery believed, and I agree, that real life examples should be NREP to avoid flame bait and allow for the accusation to be sufficiently documented (following the example of Sabaton's policy on not writing Horrible History Metal songs about current conflicts). I'm currently running with a 25-year cutoff. Any objections?

Role Reprise is now added to the crowner - no changes to the existing 5 year NREP are proposed, just trying to clarify some of the ambiguous/unclear scenarios that have been flagged here and on ATT.

Role Reprise (5 year gap before reprise. Live action reprise of a live action role is not disqualified by voice acting during that gap. Alternate Universe and Alternate Continuity versions treated as the same character for NREP purposes. Public Domain Character and Historical Domain Character roles have no NREP requirement if they are in unrelated productions - otherwise they follow the usual rules): clarification of existing NREP rule due to ambiguity and differing views from tropers. All gaps are measured by release date. Discussed here, here, here and here. Added to crowner June 30, 2023.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 30th 2023 at 11:42:08 AM

What about cross-medium adaptations of the characters? For example, Katee Sackhoff doing voice work for Bo-Katan Kryze in Star Wars: The Clone Wars and then playing the character in live-action in The Mandalorian, or going the other way with various live-action Star Trek actors doing voice work for the same characters in Star Trek Online?

Five year rule.

• The gap between voicing Bo-Katan in Star Wars: Rebels and returning to the character in The Mandalorian was less than five years, so it's not an example under the existing NREP rule.

• Anyone voicing a Star Wars Online character more than five years after they last voiced/played them is an example.

(And if someone voices a live action character in Star Wars Online and then returns to play them in live action again, we wouldn't disqualify an example for that live action reprise purely because of the game's voice acting)

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 30th 2023 at 8:18:53 PM

It's been a week and they meet the other requirements, so I'm calling the crowner for the following tropes:

• Ambiguous Gender Identity (end of season for episodic works, or three months for episodic works without seasons - both measured from the introduction of the ambiguity. No NREP waiting period for non-episodic works): To allow episodic stories a chance to develop characters and resolve initial ambiguity. Discussed here. Added to crowner June 25, 2023. 29 votes (Yeas:27 Nays:2) when called, 13.50:1 ratio in favor.
• Ambiguously Gay (end of season for episodic works, or three months for episodic works without seasons - both measured from the introduction of the ambiguity. No NREP waiting period for non-episodic works): To allow episodic stories a chance to develop characters and resolve initial ambiguity. Discussed here. Added to crowner June 25, 2023. 25 votes (Yeas:25 Nays:0) when called, unanimously in favor.
• Ambiguously Bi (end of season for episodic works, or three months for episodic works without seasons - both measured from the introduction of the ambiguity. No NREP waiting period for non-episodic works): To allow episodic stories a chance to develop characters and resolve initial ambiguity. Discussed here. Added to crowner June 25, 2023. 27 votes (Yeas:26 Nays:1) when called, 26.00:1 ratio in favor.
• Ambiguous Gender (end of season for episodic works, or three months for episodic works without seasons - both measured from the introduction of the ambiguity. No NREP waiting period for non-episodic works): To allow episodic stories a chance to develop characters and resolve initial ambiguity. Discussed here. Added to crowner June 25, 2023. 25 votes (Yeas:25 Nays:0) when called, unanimously in favor.
• Adaptation Displacement: (6 months from release of the adaptation): To prevent knee jerk reactions. Consistent with the current NREP rule for tropes such as MorePopularSpinOff and EvenBetterSequel. Discussed hereand here. Added to crowner June 25, 2023. 24 votes (Yeas:23 Nays:1) when called, 23.00:1 ratio in favor.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 2nd 2023 at 7:44:48 PM

A few more tropes that turned up while adding the Adaptation Displacement notes -

• Mainstream Obscurity: "what happens to a famous successful work intended for a wide general audience, that succeeds so well and becomes so known, that paradoxically, despite its fame, it remains relatively unknown to the general public"... that feels a lot like a trope that should have NREP, but I'm not seeing one?
• Sequel Displacement is the opposite of First Installment Wins and doesn't seem to be NREP at the moment. I'd suggest the same rule: "(6 months) To prevent knee-jerk reactions. This also applies when updating existing examples due to a new installment."
• Breakaway Pop Hit isn't on the NREP page and doesn't seem to be listed here, but has its own NREP rule buried in the introduction, which has been there since 2010 or earlier:

This is complicated by the fact that the original definition of 'obscurity' comes from a pre-streaming world

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 2nd 2023 at 2:12:19 PM