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Unreleased Work Page Cleanup (Speculation, Spoilers, Zero-Context, et al.)

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This is a thread for checking up on pages for works that have not been released yet, to make sure that they are not straying into rampant speculation or posting crazy behind the scenes spoilers. You can bring both individual examples or entire pages to attention here.

In extreme cases, any page can be locked, but hopefully that won't be necessary.

(As these pages often are hit with zero-context examples and shoehorning as well, all four - speculation, spoilers, ZCEs, and shoehorning may get addressed simultaneously.)

The policy governing this effort is Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work.

Edited by nombretomado on Jun 10th 2019 at 6:08:27 AM

Mar 20th 2019 at 11:56:19 AM

Toy Story 4 and its Tearjerker page have a lot of speculating on the context of scenes from the trailer (and main characters as Ensemble Darkhorses).

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Brainulator9 Regular garden-variety troper. from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Regular garden-variety troper.
Mar 20th 2019 at 12:09:51 PM

Cut everything that is about Woody possibly leaving, as opposed to him possibly not.

I love when bad shows have great music. Sometimes, it can be worth the hassle of sitting through a bad work.
Mar 20th 2019 at 1:08:16 PM

Yeesh. All the Toy Story 4 pages are a mess of Speculative Troping and/or Zero Context Examples. Giving them a thorough cleaning.

Edit: Both the entries on Fridge.Toy Story 4 are really reaching. Motion to cutlist.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 20th 2019 at 1:10:02 AM

bwburke94 My Ice Cream Waifu from Remnant Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
My Ice Cream Waifu
Mar 20th 2019 at 1:11:10 PM

Courtesy link to recent ATT thread regarding Avengers: Endgame

Misspelled trope names dealt with... for now. Moving back to the Understatement project soon?
Mar 20th 2019 at 1:21:42 PM

If there are specific examples of entries I've deleted from Avengers: Endgame that folks believe are valid (or could be made valid with tweaks to the entry text), I'm happy to talk about it. Speculative Troping is a widespread enough problem that seeking a permission slip before doing any cleanup strikes me as an inefficient way to do things, but that doesn't mean that folks can't try to make a case for entries to be restored.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 20th 2019 at 1:22:08 AM

Silverblade2 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Mar 20th 2019 at 1:40:44 PM

Star Wars 9:

  • Back for the Finale:
    • Greg Grunberg has confirmed that he will be returning as Temmin Wexley, who was Put on a Bus during the events of The Last Jedi. Strikes me as shoehorning; if he was in the 8th movie and he'll be in the 9th movie, then what exactly is the character "back" from? It's speculation in any case.
    • Lando Calrissian will also be back for the final chapter of the Skywalker Saga after sitting out the other two parts of this trilogy. Speculation
  • Big Bad: Kylo Ren will be the primary antagonist of the film, having supplanted Snoke as Supreme Leader of the First Order. Speculation and Zero-Context Example
  • Book-Ends: In a meta sense. The Force Awakens was the first film of the trilogy and was directed by J.J. Abrams. Now the last one will be directed by Abrams as well. "In a meta sense" is code for "shoehorning."
  • The Bus Came Back: Lando Calrissian returns, his last chronological film appearance having been in Return of the Jedi. Speculation
  • Character Outlives Actor: With the approval of Carrie Fisher's family, several pieces of unused footage from The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi have been digitally edited together in this movie as a way of giving Leia's story an actual ending instead of having her die offscreen before the events of the movie due to her actress's death. It was explicitly stated that digitally recreating her likeness was not something that Lucasfilm wanted to do, as there were concerns it was too soon for that sort of thing (unlike with Rogue One, which was made just before she died, and used her 1977 self's likeness, along with that of Peter Cushing). However, her family's requests won out. Speculation
  • Grand Finale:
    • The film will not only be the third and last chapter of the Sequel Trilogy, but it will also be the final entry of the entire Skywalker family saga. Speculation
    • This will also be a finale for composer John Williams, who has said that this will be the final Star Wars film that he composes the score for. Misuse; Grand Finale is not "last time a certain creator takes part"
  • Horse of a Different Color: Set photos revealed a scene in which the heroes are riding a wooly equine species. It's the closest thing the Star Wars saga ever had to real life horses, since real horses were used for the filming. Speculation
  • Last Episode, New Character: The finale of the sequel trilogy, and it introduces five new major characters. Speculation
  • Spirit Advisor: Luke, being one with the Force, is now able to serve as this to Rey... And possibly even Kylo Ren ("See you around, kid."). Speculation
  • Time Skip: It will be set one year after The Last Jedi. Speculation

Not seeing anything worth saving. Motion to cutlist.

Silverblade2 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Mar 20th 2019 at 1:45:48 PM

Billy Dee Williams was confirmed to return as Lando. And 9 really is the third and last chapter of the Sequel Trilogy. That isn't speculative. I mostly agree for the rest.

Edited by Silverblade2 on Mar 20th 2019 at 9:46:37 AM

Mar 20th 2019 at 2:14:54 PM

From The Bus Came Back:

This works several ways: we may get to find out what they've been up to, and then they go back to whatever it was; or it's used as a way to advance their character development even though they're no longer on the show. At the end of the episode, the character generally ends up on a different, longer bus. In rare cases, the character in question returns for good and resumes their major role.

For full context, we need to know which of these things is the case, and we don't yet. We've got Word of God saying that the trope will happen, but because it hasn't yet, we can't trope it with full context.

From Grand Finale:

...the production team may decide to go out with a bang by ending the endless chase, destroying the undestroyable foe, or in some other way definitively and permanently changing the core axioms the show depends on. It usually resolves all the conflicts that have driven the series over its entire run, and offers some kind of resolution to the dramatic tension that they have powered.

Again: how will Star Wars IX "definitively and permanently" change "the core axioms" the series depends on? How will it "resolve all the conflicts that have driven the series over its entire run" and offer "some kind of resolution to the dramatic tension" etc. etc. etc.?

We don't know until the movie is released and we can watch it. Maybe it won't; maybe it will be a case of Trailers Always Lie / Lying Creator, like when Avengers Infinity War was totally going to wrap up its story in one movie until, j/k, stay tuned for Endgame!

So the idea that IX will be a Grand Finale may be very likely speculation, but it still is speculation. And even if it was an absolute certainty that the trope will apply, we still don't know how it will apply and so we can't write an example entry with full context.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 20th 2019 at 2:16:46 AM

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Mar 20th 2019 at 2:15:15 PM

Trilogy Creep is something that occurs. Claiming that it won't happen is Speculative Troping.


For Character Outlives Actor, Leia is already an example from The Last Jedi because Leia survived to the film's release date and Carrie Fisher didn't. She may appear in the next movie, and Word of God is that they plan on doing so, but we don't know that the cut footage will survive the post-production of a work that isn't finished with pre-production.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Brainulator9 Regular garden-variety troper. from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Regular garden-variety troper.
Mar 20th 2019 at 3:25:55 PM

Fridge.Toy Story 4 was on the Cut List before and declined.

I love when bad shows have great music. Sometimes, it can be worth the hassle of sitting through a bad work.
bwburke94 My Ice Cream Waifu from Remnant Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
My Ice Cream Waifu
Mar 21st 2019 at 7:13:14 AM

[up][up] For a franchise that's avoided Trilogy Creep in the past, we can't assume it will happen.

Misspelled trope names dealt with... for now. Moving back to the Understatement project soon?
ashlay Om Mani Padme Hm
Om Mani Padme Hm
Mar 21st 2019 at 7:16:06 AM

About the Avengers: Endgame ask the tropers thread I posted: The initial cut of most the page seems fine to me anyway. I'm not saying anyone needs permission to make an edit up front. My issue is more what seems to be happening after that first purge with the adding and removing of tropes pointing towards some kind of disconnect between different site users.

I don't know if there needs to be a note included for people, or those tropes need to be commented out rather than deleted, or the edit reasons aren't clear for some people, or there's just too much hype and it needs to be locked, or if there's just a different understanding of what constitutes Speculative Troping (if I'm being honest personally, saying Word of God doesn't show creator intent and assuming 100% Never Trust a Trailer and Trailers Always Spoil isn't a thing seems just as speculative as some of the "it appears" or "reportedly" examples being cut, in a sort of Conspiracy Theories type of direction. But again, that's just me. Perfectly happy to just wait till next month myself before touching that page again.)

So yeah, WMG and speculative language is bad, doing big cuts once or twice on your own to combat it is good, but when it starts turning into back and forth editing, personally feel like that means some sort of new approach in method or parties involved should be taken.

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Mar 21st 2019 at 8:55:03 AM

For a franchise that's avoided Trilogy Creep in the past, we can't assume it will happen.
I'm not trying to add Trilogy Creep to the example list. We don't choose tropes based on "a is more likely than b". Tropes are based on what is objectively present.
For Avengers, we have Word of God that they're utilizing Trailers Always Lie. The directors have publicly shared that the trailers are using production clips that are not in the final product. Assuming that trailer context will be identical to the final product is ignoring Word of God.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Mar 21st 2019 at 11:58:01 AM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Mar 21st 2019 at 9:48:11 AM

The burden of proof is on the person who wants to add a trope to show that the trope actually happens. That's why we require context, among other things.

I'm not saying that Trailers Always Lie / Lying Creator is definitely in effect in all cases. I'm saying that because Trailers Always Lie / Lying Creator is a thing, and because we can't know until the work comes out whether it is in effect or not, that we can't draw definitive conclusions about what is or is not in a work based on a trailer or Word of God.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 21st 2019 at 9:50:38 AM

Silverblade2 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Mar 21st 2019 at 10:43:23 AM

Star Wars 9 has 82 wicks. That's pretty much why I havent sent the page to the cutlist yet because that would take a while to remove them all.

Mar 21st 2019 at 10:57:11 AM

I'd say we could delete or comment out the examples and leave the page, but considering that the page (and wicks) are going to need to be moved when we actually have— what's that thing that films that actually exist have?— oh yeah, a title— when we have a title anyway, might as well cutlist it and take care of the wicks now.

Silverblade2 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Mar 21st 2019 at 12:42:25 PM

... That's a fair point.


Alright I'm now bringing several works at once for the next batch to hasten the things.

Army Of The Dead 2020, Dune 2020, Kingsman The Great Game, Jungle Cruise (2020), Lady And The Tramp, Rambo V (which should be titled Rambo V Last Blood anyway) and Fargo Season Four

They are almost all about recently announced works that have no trailers and either haven't finished or started the production. The pages contain little information beside the names of the director, the cast and the basic premise and the current tropes are all guilty of Speculative Troping and Zero-Context Example.

Lady and the Tramp literally says that Spaghetti Kiss is expected to be there.

Mar 21st 2019 at 3:16:57 PM

[up] I can go through them page-by-page and entry-by-entry if necessary, but after perusing the pages linked in this post, absent any persuasive arguments to the contrary I'm in favor of cutlisting them all.

I would also add The Mandalorian to the pile; a little Google-Fu reveals that it just barely finished principal filming a matter of weeks ago, and the only thing that's been released to the public is a single production still. The page is rife with speculative language like "appears to be" or "seems to qualify." Cutlisting it appears to qualify as a no-brainer to me.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 21st 2019 at 3:22:07 AM

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York
Musician/Composer
Mar 21st 2019 at 3:58:05 PM

I have a question: should Series.Cowboy Bebop 2020 be looked at to make sure there’s no speculation at the moment until we get some more concrete information?

No matter who you are, always be yourself.
Mar 21st 2019 at 4:32:25 PM

[up] Looking over the page, the only thing that's not speculation is Live-Action Adaptation (since if it stopped being that, it would essentially no longer be the same project any more). The rest is a bunch of assumptions about something that hasn't even started filming yet.

Motion to cutlist.

sgamer82 from Middleton, ID
Mar 21st 2019 at 4:34:59 PM

Question: If we cutlist these super early stage pages due to nothing but speculation, should they also be locked, at least in the short-term, so they aren't just recreated all over again? Because you know someone will.

Plus, remember how in Eragon everyone cries "a single tear"? Yeah, just try that with One Piece and see if it works
Mar 21st 2019 at 4:56:38 PM

I could see pre-emptively locking them when they're first cutlisted, or I could see only locking them if someone actually re-creates them prematurely.

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Mar 21st 2019 at 5:43:39 PM

I'm in favour of locking after the second time a page is created (absent the requisite three valid tropes). Remember to encourage these editors to come to this thread so that hyped tropers can see what's happening "behind the scenes".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Mar 21st 2019 at 7:01:08 PM

Yeah. Obviously if they re-create the page and actually have something valid to put on it (like, say, when the work comes out), that's fine.


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