Unreleased Work Page Cleanup (Speculation, Spoilers, ZCE etc.)

Apparently, some entries on Future Works still had GF tags when they got release dates and some works had cleanup notes when their psges were cut. I took care of that.

RE: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/LoveLiveSchoolIdolFestivalAllStars

I've added Funny Background Event back to the article since there's no more comments on it.

I've rewritten this entry.

• Borrowed Catchphrase: To prep themselves up, Setsuna and Rin perform Ruby's Catchphrase ^note "Ganbaruby!", which combines her name with the Japanese word ganbaru (meaning "I'll do my best"), alongside Ruby herself in the opening movie trailer.

Also, I still have no reply for "Do It Yourself" Theme Tune.

The singers are cast members (specifically, they're the voice actresses of one of these fictional idol groups).

The theme song used in the trailer is their debut single, which already released last year.

Zera: Myths Awaken now includes the examples:

• Ascended Fanfic: The game started out as a Spyro the Dragon Fan Game. After a cease-and-desist order, it was retooled into its own individual game, albeit one with heavy Spyro influences.
• Mix-and-Match Critters: According to official art and gameplay footage, Zera is an axolotl/bat hybrid inspired Cartoon Creature. She has the general look of an axolotl but has wings and ears similar to a bat's.
• Retraux: The demo uses low-poly, Playstation-style graphics despite being a 2010s PC game.

Is that better?

The latter is likely to end up as factually incorrect (this game has no announced release date, but it is still early in development and will probably not release before the calendar moves into the 2020s.)

I'd change the phrasing to:

• Retraux: The demo uses low-poly, Playstation-style graphics despite being developed in the late 2010s.

That will still be true even if the development of the game proper slips into the 2020s, or if the graphical style of the final game changes.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 29th 2019 at 4:01:06 AM

Restored Pegasus on Fire Emblem: Three Houses, with High Crate's edit as it was a ZCE dispute, not a speculation one, and I hadn't got round to restoring it before they mostly-blanked the page.

Noting for the record that troper SpuriousVulture deleted the hidden editors' note from Marvel's Avengers and restored several entries with no alteration and no edit reason. As they also added citations to some entries, I have reverted the problem edits while leaving the productive ones be, and sent them a notifier about respecting editors' notes.

High Crate

I still have no feedback on my comment post.

HighCrate deleted all commented-out examples on Sonic the Hedgehog (2020). I think these tropes are clearly seen in the trailer, with my changes bolded. If they're not speculation and just lacking context, they should stay commented-out.

• Adaptational Curves: Sonic's redesign as seen in the first trailer ditches his standard Rubberhose Limbs for a much more realistic, muscular looking body. It's safe to say that this Sonic does not skip leg day.
• Adaptational Attractiveness: Robotnik looks much more dashing when played by Jim Carrey. He's in better shape, has a full head of hair, and his mustache is well-groomed. Ultimately averted by the end of the trailer where he's the bald, goggles-wearing, and bushy moustached man we expect Eggman to be.
• Chewing the Scenery: Robotnik's character does this in just a few minutes while interrupting one of the generals in the trailer.
• Godzilla Threshold: The military considers bringing Robotnik into the fray as a last resort, because of how obnoxious and insufferable he is.
• Mythology Gag:
  • The badge for the Green Hills Sheriff department has a background depicting a river, hills and greenery, which would be a basic description of Green Hill Zone.
  • The plot of Sonic being pursued by the military recalls Sonic Adventure 2, which also featured several locales inspired by San Francisco, while the poster shot of Sonic running down a skyscraper resembles an iconic moment of the same from Sonic Adventure.
  • The idea of Sonic possibly being extraterrestrial is reminiscent of the premise of the initial seasons of Sonic X, which saw Sonic and company being transported to Earth and living there among the humans. At one point, Sonic even says "Gotta go fast", a reference to the anime's English theme song.
  • Sonic's pose during the scene where dozens of missiles are shooting at him is a reference to his idle animation from the original Sonic the Hedgehog.
  • While Robotnik is unambiguously villainous in this movie, his origins as a relatively sane individual before turning full-heel has its roots in both the Sonic the Hedgehog Promo Comic and Fleetway's Sonic the Comic, where Robotnik was a kindly scientist named Kintobor before a lab accident.
  • Sonic's ability to use rings to teleport people to other places is a nod to the Warp Rings from Sonic 1, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and Sonic Mania, which Sonic would use to travel to the game's special stages. The concept was also used in Sonic 3D Blast, where they were referred to as "Dimension Rings".
• That Came Out Wrong: While Tom and his wife try to sneak Sonic into a building through a luggage bag in the first trailer, the two people next to them can hear Sonic and ask if his child is in his bag. Tom says no, but then clarifies that "yes, it's a child, but it's not mine", which prompts the other two people to walk away looking visibly weirded out.

@High Crate, I've noticed something about this corrected entry on Granblue Fantasy Versus, the previous, uncleaned text was this:

• Immune to Flinching: Yggdrasil's moves don't get interrupted by the opponent's attacks, a mechanic that is clearly shown in Lowain's Trailer when Lancelot's moves didn't even make her flinch.

Now the new, "cleaned" version is this:

• Immune to Flinching: In Lowain's Trailer, Lancelot's moves don't even make her flinch.

The context has changed because of one deleted sentence. Permission to make a quick edit so that the pronoun "her" should be referring to the correct character? Like this...

• In Lowain's Trailer, Lancelot's moves don't even make Yggdrasil flinch.

Do you really need permission when you're just adding clarifying context?

Edited by sgamer82 on Jun 30th 2019 at 11:20:57 AM

Keep Adaptational Curves cut. Sonic's model is being changed but we don't know to what degree. It could just be cosmetic or they could make him more SegaSonic. Sonic's section in Characters.Sonic The Hedgehog 2020 probably won't be accurate by release.

This is what's being posted on every unreleased work as editor's notes:

• If you have questions, please consult the Unreleased Work Speculation Cleanup thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15514631230A64268600

Well, I assume this covers any sort of changes done to any unreleased work page. I understand it as "Inquire on this thread first before you publish any changes to the work pages" (whether minor or major).

Edited by DanteVin on Jul 1st 2019 at 1:26:21 AM

@rjd1922: Looking through those examples...

• Adaptational Curves should ditch the last sentence. Otherwise, it's fine.
• Adaptational Attractiveness might need another citation in the first part.
• Chewing the Scenery is a ZCE.
• Godzilla Threshold doesn't have a citation.
• All Mythology Gag examples need citations.
• That Came Out Wrong is fine.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jun 30th 2019 at 1:28:03 PM

I think practically speaking it can't cover every edit because there are too many unreleased works. It probably should cover any that can be disagreed on (debatable speculation, debatable ZCE, avoiding an edit war)

I'm starting to rather doubt the effectiveness of mass-blanking pages. They decided against banning all unreleased works. Commenting out everything then coming back later and deleting all commented out entries kind of feels like a workaround to that more than a genuine cleanup

DanteVin, no, you don't need permission for that.

I agree with both.

Edited by rjd1922 on Jun 30th 2019 at 1:14:12 PM

I was more thinking on how it looked like you were asking HighCrate for permission personally, rather than the thread as a whole.

I see, sorry for any misinterpretations. Anyway, thanks for the replies, gonna edit it anyway since it's just a minor subject-pronoun problem

Thank you for catching and correcting that, DanteVin.

@HalfFaust - Deleting the hidden entries seems to have given folks an impetus to look through them and see if any of them can be fixed, which is more than leaving them hidden and gathering dust for weeks did. Sounds like forward progress to me.

I also object to the accusation that I deleted "everything." I deleted the problem entries, which was most, but not all of them. The entries that were already fixed in previous rounds of cleanup were left alone.

As far as the entries themselves:

• Chewing the Scenery: Robotnik's character does this in just a few minutes while interrupting one of the generals in the trailer. ZCE. What does Robotnik do? "This" isn't context.
• Godzilla Threshold: The military considers bringing Robotnik into the fray as a last resort, because of how obnoxious and insufferable he is. Strikes me as shoehorning. Godzilla Theshold is about plans with little chance of success, likelihood of collateral damage, or some sort of moral abhorrence. Also lacks citation. Also a ZCE because it doesn't establish what the threat is. Overall, just plain bad.
• Mythology Gag:
  • The badge for the Green Hills Sheriff department has a background depicting a river, hills and greenery, which would be a basic description of Green Hill Zone. No citation, shoehorning (not really a "gag").
  • The plot of Sonic being pursued by the military recalls Sonic Adventure 2, which also featured several locales inspired by San Francisco, while the poster shot of Sonic running down a skyscraper resembles an iconic moment of the same from Sonic Adventure. No citation, shoehorning (not a "gag").
  • The idea of Sonic possibly being extraterrestrial is reminiscent of the premise of the initial seasons of Sonic X, which saw Sonic and company being transported to Earth and living there among the humans. At one point, Sonic even says "Gotta go fast", a reference to the anime's English theme song. No citation, speculative language ("possibly"). The last sentence might have the germ of a valid example.
  • Sonic's pose during the scene where dozens of missiles are shooting at him is a reference to his idle animation from the original Sonic the Hedgehog. No citation.
  • While Robotnik is unambiguously villainous in this movie, his origins as a relatively sane individual before turning full-heel has its roots in both the Sonic the Hedgehog Promo Comic and Fleetway's Sonic the Comic, where Robotnik was a kindly scientist named Kintobor before a lab accident. No citation, shoehorning (not a "gag").
  • Sonic's ability to use rings to teleport people to other places is a nod to the Warp Rings from Sonic 1, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and Sonic Mania, which Sonic would use to travel to the game's special stages. The concept was also used in Sonic 3D Blast, where they were referred to as "Dimension Rings". No citation, shoehorning (not a "gag").

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 30th 2019 at 12:24:49 PM

The sentence about skipping leg day seemed like a harmless joke to me; not sure why it had to be removed. How about this for Mythology Gag?

• When he first appears in the trailer, Sonic says "Gotta go fast", a reference to Sonic X's English theme song.
• Sonic's pose during the trailer scene where dozens of missiles are shooting at him is a reference to his idle animation from the original Sonic the Hedgehog.

Edited by rjd1922 on Jun 30th 2019 at 3:03:05 AM

Sorry if I wasn't entirely clear; I wasn't referring to a specific page but a general trend. Many pages have been 'cleaned' this way.

@HighCrate
Would it be possible for you to stop using Zero-Context Example as an edit reason and just point to Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work instead? There doesn't seem to a particular consensus in this thread regarding it and it further seems to be causing other tropers to be confused about the policy for upcoming works. I even got a message the other day asking me what was going on on for one upcoming work page because they couldn't understand your ZCE edit reason.

I feel like using Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work instead would go a long way to pre-emptively nipping some edit wars and other problems in the bud while still allowing you to comment out the same examples you want on upcoming works pages.

Edited by ashlay on Jun 30th 2019 at 7:20:49 AM

I would like to add a proposed trope for Shin Sakura Wars:

• Shout-Out: The event scenes in the gameplay demos are based on those from Sega’s Yakuza series.

Thoughts?

Edited by gjjones on Jul 1st 2019 at 5:16:21 AM

Let's talk about VideoGame.Borderlands 3. It's quite extensive so I'll stick to commentary instead of quoting the existing entry text:

• Art Evolution: This trope is about changes to overall art style, not minor redesigns of guns. Shoehorning, cut.
• Anti-Frustration Features: This is one of those instances where someone awkwardly slapped "the trailer shows that" on the beginning before proceeding to forget all about the trailer and attempt to trope the final work as if it were actually out. Speculative Troping, cut.
• Big Bad Duumvirate: This is a Zero-Context Example, and inherently speculative; Big Bad is a trope that requires knowledge of the full plot of the work to accurately trope. Cut.
• Brought Down to Normal: This entry reads as hot nonsense to anyone who isn't familiar with the franchise. Radically rewrite to give full context or cut.
• Contrasting Sequel Antagonist: Awkwardly says "the trailer shows that" before proceeding to attempt to trope the final work as if it were actually out. Speculative Troping, cut.
• Cool Starship: Shoehorning; there is a lot more to Cool Starship than "starships exist." Cut.
• Cult: Speculative Troping; presumes knowledge of who "the central antagonists" are when we don't know the full plot of the final work. Cutting the speculation leaves it without enough context. Massively rewrite or cut.
• Fat Bastard: Shoehorning; Fat Bastard is about overweight characters losing sympathy with the audience, not "fat people exist." Cut.
• Gender-Restricted Ability: The entry text says nothing about gender. Massively rewrite or cut.
• Hard Light: The entry text says nothing about hard light. Massively rewrite or cut.
• Jack of All Trades: Yet another instance of awkwardly slapping "the trailer shows that" over an otherwise entirely speculative entry. The passive voice ("is described as") is particularly problematic. Cut.
• King Mook: Insufficient context. Is the character an enlarged version of a regular mook? Palette-swapped? What abilities does he have above and beyond those of a normal mook? Massively rewrite or cut.
• Leet Lingo: ZCE. Massively rewrite or cut.
• Literally Shattered Lives: Awkwardly slaps "the trailer shows that" before an otherwise speculative entry. The second-person tense is a problem; "you" can't do anything in a non-interactive trailer. Rewrite or cut.
• Masked Luchadore: Speculative - no citation.
• Mini-Mecha: Insufficient context. Is the mech too big to be considered Power Armor but too small to be considered a Humongous Mecha? Does the user have to "use commands or controls to control the limbs or movement"? Massively rewrite or cut.
• N.G.O. Superpower: Shoehorning. There is a lot more to N.G.O. Superpower than "big bad Megacorp." Cut.
• Only One Name: Not a notable aversion. Cut.
• Power Walk: This is two examples awkwardly mushed together, neither of which have anything like proper context and both of which smack of shoehorning. Cut.
• Take That!: Speculative - no citation.
• Took a Level in Badass: Yet another example of awkwardly slapping "the trailer shows that" over an otherwise speculative entry. How does "the trailer show" what a company was thinking when they designed their guns?
• Video Game Cruelty Potential: Speculative; second-person writing. "You" can't do anything in a non-interactive trailer.
• Wham Shot: Reads as hot nonsense to anyone not familiar with the work. Massively rewrite or cut.

By the way, Discar's edit reason for restoring these betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the point of TV Tropes and a perfect illustration of why it's a bad idea to leave a page full of hidden entries on release date.

The proper order of events is to experience the work, decide what tropes apply, and then write up entry text with full context.

He seems to think that it's "guess what tropes apply, write up entry text based on what you think will happen, and then see whether your guess is right."

TV Tropes is not a guessing game.

Edited by HighCrate on Jul 1st 2019 at 6:28:32 AM

It may be worth noting that this post seems in direct response to this Ask The Tropers thread, which started as an edit war report but ended up expressing concern HighCrate was falling into the same unilateral actions that got them in trouble once before.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jul 1st 2019 at 8:00:47 AM