Unreleased Work Page Cleanup (Speculation, Spoilers, ZCE etc.)

Re: Zera: Myths Awaken:

• Fairy Companion: ZCE. From the trope description, "A character is accompanied by a Fairy Creature, usually of the tiny variety and not one of the mean ones (at worst, this character has a mischievous streak). The Fairy often lends a magical helping hand, which doesn't always work out as planned. Hilarity Ensues." At minimum, the example text needs to establish that Kiwi is some kind of fairy creature in a way that doesn't rely on knowledge of the work; "Sparx-like" means nothing to someone who isn't familiar with the franchise. For full context, it should say which of the common traits of Fairy Companion are present here. Is it tiny? Does it flit about the character's head? Does it lend a magical helping hand, and is it actually helpful, or is it comedically incompetent? That sort of thing. Also needs to cite the source.
• Mix-and-Match Critters: This might not quite be a ZCE, but it's close. A little extra description would go a long way. What features does it take from which critters? Also needs to cite the source.
• Retraux: No source cited.
• Running on All Fours: ZCE. From the trope description, "This character may walk or run on two legs but is absurdly fast and nimble when running on all fours." At minimum, the entry text must establish that the creature is as fast or faster on all fours than on two legs. For full context, it should really add what this is meant to portray about the character. Were they Raised by Wolves? Are they closer to nature? Etc.
• Spiritual Successor: ZCE, speculative, no source citation, and just all-around bad.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 27th 2019 at 2:09:02 AM

Retraux and Spiritual Successor aren't unsourced. It started out as a Spyro fan-game with retraux graphics, but when it dropped Spyro it kept the PS 1-style graphics.

And what publicly-available, tropable material as defined in Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work do these tropes appear in?

At least one demo has been released.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I'll buy that Retraux is present in the demo. Can you rewrite that entry to make clear that it's referring to a demo, and not a game that you have never played because it hasn't been released yet?

Spiritual Successor is another story. I have a hard time believing that a demo is, in and of itself, a Spiritual Successor to Spyro. But even if it is, the sentence fragment "To the original Spyro the Dragon trilogy" isn't nearly enough context to establish it. It's a ZCE, and a bad one.

Understand, when I say things like "unsourced" and "no citation," I'm talking about in the example text. The reader only knows what you tell them in the example text. If you don't write the source in the example text, then it might as well not exist.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 27th 2019 at 3:38:55 AM

• Retraux: The demo uses low-poly, Playstation-style graphics despite being a 2010s PC game.
• Spiritual Successor: The game is designed as one to the original Spyro the Dragon trilogy due it starting out as a Fan Game. It's designed to be have an intentionally similar aesthetic and similar gameplay. Both Spyro and Zera are colorful, low-poly 3D platformers starring an animal and their Fairy Companion.

Better?

So, can I re-add the citations to Kyle & Lucy and Indivisible? Or are both pages just going to get blanked again if I do?

It would be best to discuss examples here. Folderizing the examples into categories is likely to cause a moderator to revert it again.

Retraux looks good to me. I'm rarely confident on Spiritual Successor, so don't consider this a mark against it.

So, I'm thinking about adding a new entry to Shin Sakura Wars:

• Never Trust a Trailer: At the end of the teaser trailer, Sakura tells Kamiyama "This is the moment where our fates awaken" as she gives him a tour of the Imperial Theater. However, the pre-release gameplay videos released during Sega's July 2019 livestream reveal that Sakura is actually telling Kamiyama that she has always dreamed of joining the combat revue.

Edited by gjjones on Jun 28th 2019 at 6:19:39 AM

Never Trust a Trailer inherently relies on a comparison between the trailer and the final work. Since we don't have the final work for comparison, this is one of those that by definition can't be included pre-release.

On VideoGame.Pokemon Masters, the six edits made since initial cleanup include one that was actually useful (a link to the trailer above the line), one that added a horizontal line at the end of the page, three that added pre-hidden Speculative Troping (not allowed per mod post on this thread), and one that edited a hidden Speculative Troping example without adding a citation, otherwise addressing the issue that caused it to be hidden, or unhiding it.

Merely hiding Speculative Troping is clearly sending people the wrong impression that it's okay to trope works you haven't experienced as long as you do it behind comment tags.

If this was an ordinary pre-release page, I might just call for a page lock, but this is one of our pages that is grandfathered in on a trial basis, and it also has no valid, unhidden examples.

As such, I'm calling for its grandfathered status to be revoked and for it to be cutlisted.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 28th 2019 at 5:39:18 AM

Wait... Wasn't Pokémon Masters announced after we decided to do the grandfathering thing, or is my memory bad?

Anyway, I've sent speculation (and a ZCE) notifiers to the offending tropers.

The trailer for the game that released yesterday has its own page here, so any tropes on the game's page from that trailer should be moved before the page gets cutlisted.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jun 28th 2019 at 10:02:06 AM

The edit history shows that the page was created on May 28th. IIRC we decided on the grandfathering thing on June 5th-ish.

Is a separate page for a trailer really necessary? Being an anime trailer is a bit more separate than a normal gameplay and stuff trailer but it still feels like a normal trailer, not a separate work. The four tropes on there are all things that will probably be in the game - so, yes, may be speculation now but would be better to come back to after the game is released, than put on a separate page.

I definitely do not think that a four-minute trailer warrants a page separate from the work it's a trailer for.

Looking at the four entries on the page:

• Adaptation Dye-Job: Red's hair is a darker shade of brown than normal. Given the studio animating the trailer, however, it uses its own art style interpretation for the series. ZCE; what is the work being adapted? Reads like shoehorning in any case; "a darker shade of brown" seems like splitting hairs, pardon the pun.
• Late-Arrival Spoiler: Lusamine, Gladion, and Lillie (in her "z-powered" form at that) are shown together. This spoils their relationship for any viewer who didn't already know. ZCE. What is their relationship, and how does showing them together spoil it?
• Pokémon Speak: Zigzagged. Most Pokémon don't say their names, but Pikachu does (like it does in the post-Pokémon X and Y games). Not a zig-zag, just a single example in Pikachu. Other than that, could be valid if rewritten.
• The Voiceless: Rosa, Red, and the new player characters are voiceless. They don't even make noise. This is a reference to the two being silent protagonist's [sic] in the games. Seems valid enough.

The Voiceless could be moved to the main work page if a citation was added.

Adaptation Dye-Job strikes me as shoehorning and should be cut.

Late-Arrival Spoiler is a ZCE, but it strikes me as probably a problem for other reasons. If "their relationship" is presumed to be a spoiler for the work proper, then it's speculation and should be cut. If it's a spoiler for another work in the franchise, then it belongs on that page, not the one for Pokémon Masters.

Pokémon Speak could potentially be rewritten to be valid, although that's still only two valid trope examples in the best-case scenario, not enough to be pageworthy.

My recommendation to cut VideoGame.Pokemon Masters stands, and I also recommend that we cutlist Anime.Pokemon Masters Trailer.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 28th 2019 at 7:41:43 AM

That Never Trust a Trailer example for Shin Sakura Wars is valid; the trailer contradicts the gameplay we were shown.

Edited by rjd1922 on Jun 28th 2019 at 10:06:43 AM

Never Trust a Trailer relies on a comparison between the trailer and the work proper, not between a trailer and other promotional material.

I added back Mix-and-Match Critters, Retraux, and Spiritual Successor to Zera: Myths Awaken, removed Fairy Companion for being a zero-context example, and removed Running on All Fours for not counting.

I don't know if Pokemon Masters Trailer should be cutlisted. I made it to go with the pages for the other animated trailers, though this trailer has a bit less actual content. However, judging by it does have the bare minimum three examples.

Edited by Pichu-kun on Jun 28th 2019 at 1:45:35 AM

Currently Anime.Pokemon Masters Trailer has exactly zero valid examples. It might, best-case scenario, be made to have two. That's still short of the absolute minimum of three, and three is an absolute minimum; ideally, a healthy page should have at least ten.

It's just plain not pageworthy.

As for Zera: Myths Awaken, Mix-and-Match Critters lacks citation, and Spiritual Successor is written as though it refers to a game that it cannot possibly be referring to because that game has not been released or, indeed, finished. It could conceivably be made pageworthy, but as of right now, it's not.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 28th 2019 at 1:50:03 AM

Yeah, the gameplay in the trailer is not the final version (i.e. some of the voices in the gameplay have not been put in yet).

How would you source Mix-and-Match Critter? It's something the devs has stated: Zera's a axolotl/bat hybrid.

Does the game have to be finished to be a Spiritual Successor? The game is being designed with heavy Spyro influences. That seems about successor-worthy.

Edited by Pichu-kun on Jun 28th 2019 at 2:02:17 AM

Word of God is not acceptable context. We don't trope things that people say about works, at least not on the main work page. (Trivia items and Audience Reactions, which usually go under YMMV, are a little different.) We list tropes that happen in the work.

Is the character present in publicly-available, tropable materials such as trailers? Is it a Mix-and-Match Critter in those materials? If so, then write the entry text to specify that the trope is present in those materials. Without such a citation, anything in a work page is assumed to be referring to the work proper, and since the work proper has not been released or indeed finished, that would be speculation.

As for Spiritual Successor, while we might feel reasonable assured that the game will be a Spiritual Successor, we won't have full context for how the trope applies until the game is actually out and in the public's hands.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 28th 2019 at 3:07:19 AM

By the way Spiderman Far From Home was relased in China and japan today.

Could I request that the pages be unlocked and removed from the future works sandbox?

Are you in China or Japan, and have you seen the movie?

They're released publicly. They are no longer a future work. Please go to the locked pages thread.

Edited by nombretomado on Jun 28th 2019 at 4:08:21 AM

Declining the VideoGame.Pokemon Masters cut request for now. Seems like there's still active conversation about that one.