Follow TV Tropes

Following

Unreleased Work Page Cleanup (Speculation, Spoilers, Zero-Context, et al.)

Go To

This is a thread for checking up on pages for works that have not been released yet, to make sure that they are not straying into rampant speculation or posting crazy behind the scenes spoilers. You can bring both individual examples or entire pages to attention here.

In extreme cases, any page can be locked, but hopefully that won't be necessary.

(As these pages often are hit with zero-context examples and shoehorning as well, all four - speculation, spoilers, ZCEs, and shoehorning may get addressed simultaneously.)

The policy governing this effort is Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work.

Edited by nombretomado on Jun 10th 2019 at 6:08:27 AM

infernape612 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Jun 26th 2019 at 10:20:46 PM

I wanna put Mle Trois back on Fire Emblem: Three Houses since I don't think something that comes directly and explicitly from pre-release materials counts as speculation. You can clearly see at about 3:52 here that red guys will attack yellow guys and blue guys, and that yellow guys will attack blue guys.

Is this okay?

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York
Musician/Composer
Jun 26th 2019 at 10:36:53 PM

While I'm still trying to find some more examples from the pre-release gameplay videos and Word of God information is not really allowed, would official websites that have detailed character profiles and gameplay mechanics work as well? I don't want it to violate the new administrivia policy.

Edited by gjjones on Jun 26th 2019 at 1:37:39 PM

No matter who you are, always be yourself.
Crossover-Enthusiast Plotting something from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Plotting something
Jun 27th 2019 at 2:19:15 AM

[up] The resulting consensus was "no".

"How can I ruin these wonderful people's lives today?"
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York
Musician/Composer
Jun 27th 2019 at 2:34:58 AM

I see. Just wanted to double check in case I missed the memo.

Edited by gjjones on Jun 27th 2019 at 5:35:47 AM

No matter who you are, always be yourself.
Jun 27th 2019 at 5:17:38 AM

From Film.Downton Abbey:

The Movie is one of those tropes that often has Zero-Context Example troubles in the best of times. I'm not sure how or whether one can give it proper context relying only on marketing materials, although I'm inclined to err on the side of caution and say "you can't."

The Movie isn't just any movie based on a pre-existing property. It has to be based on a TV show in particular (which Downton Abbey is, so far so good).

It has to function as a longer, more elaborate episode of that show, in continuity with the TV series and utilizing the same cast; otherwise it's a Non-Serial Movie or The Film of the Series. The entry as written implies that it continues the story, although it doesn't give any citation for that.

If we go by the principle that pre-release tropes should stick to describing pre-release materials as opposed to the final work itself— which has been a useful rule so far— it can't apply at all. The trailer is not The Movie. The movie is the movie, and the movie hasn't come out yet, so we should refrain from making statements about it until it is.

Pichu-kun ...
...
Jun 27th 2019 at 6:40:12 AM

Can the Yo-kai Watch 4 page be reverted now?

^ On Pokemon Masters, I'd say that the Composite Character and The Bus Came Back examples are valid. Suddenly Voiced and Adaptational Attractiveness might also count but I'm not sure if they fit the trope's definitions.

Jun 27th 2019 at 6:54:33 AM

Yo-kai Watch 4 is no longer technically an unreleased work, since it has been officially released in Japan. However I remain of the opinion that folks who haven't played it shouldn't be editing the page as if they have. I'm not going to be IP-tracing people to try to prove who is and isn't posting from Japan or anything; if an editor says they have an import copy of the game or something, then sure, fine. Just, as a general principle, I don't think people should trope works they haven't experienced, that's all.

Considering that all of the hidden entries on the page were written before the game was released anywhere, however, I'd consider "reverting" the page in the sense of just unhiding all the entries without alteration to be highly suspect.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 27th 2019 at 7:07:00 AM

Jun 27th 2019 at 7:05:12 AM

Re: the VideoGame.Pokemon Masters entries you brought up:

  • The Bus Came Back: Naturally, many previously-benched characters will be returning as part of the game's premise. Rosa in particular appears for the first time since her debut in Pokmon Black and White 2, seven year and 3 generations ago.

This is explicitly speculative, written in the future tense ("will be returning"). Additionally, it's a Zero-Context Example and looks like probable shoehorning to me. The Bus Came Back is a story trope about characters who are explicitly written out of the plot being written back into the plot, not just a character that happened to not be featured and then happened to be featured again. For full context, it would have to explain how they were written out and how they were written back, not just how long it's been since their last appearance. And it would have to do all of that drawing solely from publicly-available tropable material, not speculation about the plot of a game that has not been released yet.

I highly doubt that's possible, and tbh, I think the hidden entry could be deleted for speculation / possible shoehorning rather than merely hidden.

  • Composite Character: Downplayed due to it only being design-related. Red keeps his modern design but wears his classic hat. His jacket also takes inspiration from his classic design.

"Downplayed" is a common signifier for "shoehorning," and that seems to be the case here. A Composite Character is two different characters that are combined in an adaptation. This describes a single character taking design elements from various previous iterations of the same character, which is not what this trope is. Again, I think this can be deleted for shoehorning.

  • Suddenly Voiced: For the first time in the series, the trainers will be fully voiced. Cynthia, Brock and Misty are all shown speaking in the game's debut gameplay trailer. Naturally this adds a great deal of personality to the battles. Players seem to also be able to interact with the trainers outside of the battle, with additional voiced lines present. Ironically, one of the trainers with the most focus in the game's promotional art is Red, who himself is notoriously silent throughout the series. Thus, he may be the only character to lack voiced lines entirely.

The first sentence is explicitly speculation (written in the future tense, referring to a game that does not exist in its final form yet which none of us have touched). The second sentence might have the core of a valid write-up in it. Unfortunately, the entry then goes on to indulge in more speculation ("seem to," "may be"). Could potentially be made valid with a rewrite.

  • Adaptational Attractiveness: The game features HD models of the Pokmon Trainer characters with realistic proportions and a high level of detail to add to the realism. Cynthia and Misty look more accurately realized, even though Cynthia's last appearance in Sun and Moon was already a step up in realism from X&Y, and Misty was deliberately chibi-styled in the Let's Go games. Height is also accurately shown for the first time - Cynthia towers over Rosa and presumably Misty, who would be of a similar height. Misty all retains the more casual outfit she sports in the Let's Go series despite being brought in line with the canonical proportions that exist outside those games. Red also sports a redesign - he has the style of his hat and jacket from the Generation 1 and Let's Go games, but facially and proportionally resembles his main series appearance from HeartGold and SoulSilver, with a modified jacket and a flame emblem on his hat to match his Mega Charizard X.

Explicitly speculation, written in the present tense about a game that does not exist in its final form in the present. Considering that no one who edits this wiki has played the game, where is this information coming from? Could potentially be made valid with a rewrite citing a publicly-available tropable source.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 27th 2019 at 7:09:08 AM

Jun 27th 2019 at 7:10:36 AM

Not troping a work one hasn't experienced is common sense but not enforceable. If it's released to the public, it's not this thread's purview anymore. That said, I agree it shouldn't be reverted - yes, somebody having to go through entry by entry is more work but it also means they should catch anything that, with the work in hand, can be confirmed invalid or just-trailer.

Jun 27th 2019 at 7:21:59 AM

[up] Agreed. It's also a compelling argument for deleting, rather than merely hiding with comment tags, entries that are clearly speculative (as opposed to merely lacking citation).

During this adjustment period we've mostly been hiding problem entries, because so many of them pre-date the current policy, and requirements like citations to publicly-released tropable materials are non-obvious to folks not used to it.

That made sense when there was a giant backlog of pre-policy material to clean up, but going forward, I think that we should use discretion to outright cut entries that are clearly speculation. The temptation for overeager tropers to just remove comment tags on release day without thought is going to be there as long as those entries exist in the source.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 27th 2019 at 7:23:43 AM

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Brainulator9 Regular garden-variety troper. from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Regular garden-variety troper.
Jun 27th 2019 at 8:19:58 AM

[tup] Cut speculation. We never want that on the wiki. Leave your Epileptic Trees on Wild Mass Guessing.

Important Trope Repair Shop thread under construction for four closely-related items.
Pichu-kun ...
...
Jun 27th 2019 at 8:25:16 AM

Does Composite Character need to be about two different characters? I've seen examples about two incarnations of a character combined into one.

Jun 27th 2019 at 8:35:18 AM

Then those are misuse and should be cut as well. The trope's definition is pretty clear that it's about multiple characters being combined.

Jun 27th 2019 at 8:36:08 AM

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/LoveLiveSchoolIdolFestivalAllStars

Brought back the following:

  • Alternate Continuity: As stated in the 2017 Tokyo Game Show announcement, ALL STARS takes place in a continuity where μs and Aqours exist concurrently, as opposed to the official timeline, where Aqours was founded some years after μs disbanded.
  • Art-Shifted Sequel: Unlike SIF, which is entirely 2D, ALL STARS is entirely 3D in a similar vein to after school activity, Square Enix's arcade version of SIF.
  • Borrowed Catchphrase: Setsuna and Rin perform Ruby's "Ganbaruby!" alongside Ruby herself in the opening movie.
  • "Do It Yourself" Theme Tune: Despite the fact that the game's opening cinematic shows all 27 idols performing on-stage, "Tokimeki RUNNERS" is performed exclusively by the Nijigasaki idols and was released as their debut single.
  • Funny Background Event: During the opening when Emma, Rina, and Hanamaru are getting together, Nozomi can be seen attempting her signature "washi washi" on Dia in the background.
  • Loads and Loads of Characters: Just see the official key visual for the game.

And added a ton of promotional videos from the official channels.

Jun 27th 2019 at 8:53:30 AM

In theory, cutting clear speculation is fine but if we're doing that I think we need a higher standard than what we're currently using for commenting things out. Just look back through this thread and there's 'a lot' of disputed examples.

DanteVin Nier of Granblue from Whatever dimension this is Relationship Status: P.S. I love you
Nier of Granblue
Jun 27th 2019 at 8:54:22 AM

Do mods have the ability to restore cut pages?

For example Fate/Grand Order - Absolute Demonic Front: Babylonia doesn't have any listed entries for now, and I have read a comment here planning to delete it early next week. But some key staff members are reported to participate in the Anime Expo Los Angeles Convention scheduled from July 5-8 next week. Fans of the anime expect new announcements and trailers, to which avid tropers may edit that page once more. Also, those who made that page would wonder if it gets deleted before the Expo.

Just a suggestion but... with Anime Expo coming closer, I think it's better to hold off cutting anime-related work pages until we get to determine if these unreleased anime titles will have new info or not.

Daisuki Die-suki
Jun 27th 2019 at 8:57:09 AM

[up] Much as we did with video game pages pre-E3, I am fine with holding off on cutlisting anime pages until after Anime Expo (plus a reasonable amount of time for people to add tropes found in any new trailers).

[up][up][up] Apologies, I didn't see that you'd posted here. Going down the list:

  • Alternate Continuity: As stated in the 2017 Tokyo Game Show announcement, ALL STARS takes place in a continuity where μs and Aqours exist concurrently, as opposed to the official timeline, where Aqours was founded some years after μs disbanded. Word of God is not sufficient context for upcoming works.
  • Art-Shifted Sequel: Unlike SIF, which is entirely 2D, ALL STARS is entirely 3D in a similar vein to after school activity, Square Enix's arcade version of SIF. Lacks citation.
  • Borrowed Catchphrase: Setsuna and Rin perform Ruby's "Ganbaruby!" alongside Ruby herself in the opening movie. ZCE, lacks citation.
  • "Do It Yourself" Theme Tune: Despite the fact that the game's opening cinematic shows all 27 idols performing on-stage, "Tokimeki RUNNERS" is performed exclusively by the Nijigasaki idols and was released as their debut single. Reads as a ZCE to someone not familiar with the work. Are "the Nijigasaki idols" cast members or otherwise involved in the production of the work?
  • Funny Background Event: During the opening when Emma, Rina, and Hanamaru are getting together, Nozomi can be seen attempting her signature "washi washi" on Dia in the background. Lacks citation.
  • Loads and Loads of Characters: Just see the official key visual◊ for the game. Weblinks are not context.

@Half Faust - I feel like most of the major disputes have been resolved at this point. A few tropers, most notably NTC 3, have been systematically going through the pages listed in the sandbox and adding citations. I may take another, deeper pass through some of them now that there's less material to go through, and I suspect that there are at least some unhidden entries that use "trailer reveals that" as a rubberstamp for something that's still inherently speculative.

That said, I'm pretty confident that anything that's still left hidden on pages that someone like NTC 3 has gone through can safely be cut.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 27th 2019 at 9:06:30 AM

Metroid26 from 11 Fathoms
Jun 27th 2019 at 9:40:05 AM

Regarding Composite Character, the trope description specifically allows compositing multiple versions of a single Character:

In some extreme cases with certain stories that have regular adaptations every few years, an Era-Specific Personality gives them the opportunity to fuse specific versions of the SAME character in different adaptations, making someone a composite character of him- or herself.

I do agree that the Pokemon example feels shoehorned.

WARNING! Drive by post in progress.
Jun 27th 2019 at 9:50:39 AM

[up][up]

Is posting the opening movie not enough?

Are promotional videos not enough?

What citation is needed? Do I need to timestamp the events in the video?

—-

To answer the question: Are "the Nijigasaki idols" cast members or otherwise involved in the production of the work?

They are cast members.

—-

Rewritten:

  • Borrowed Catchphrase: To prep themselves up, Setsuna and Rin perform Ruby's "Ganbaruby!" note  alongside Ruby herself in the opening movie.

Edited by lenne18 on Jun 28th 2019 at 1:01:10 AM

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Jun 27th 2019 at 10:07:34 AM

~lenne18, the policy on citations is described in Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work. The relevant part is:

  • When writing an example, make sure you are noting the source. Because the finished work is not available yet, it is not your source of information. Your source is [Trailer A], [Poster B], the open beta, the E3 demo, etc., so your example should cite that: "In [Trailer A]..."

  • Borrowed Catchphrase: To prep themselves up, Setsuna and Rin perform Ruby's "Ganbaruby!"note  alongside Ruby herself in the opening movie.
This example claims that the game is the source of information. Adding "trailer" at the end will clarify that the opening movie is available as promotional material. Otherwise it is well-written.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Jun 27th 2019 at 10:47:25 AM

[up]

Rewritten:

  • Art-Shifted Sequel: Based on the various promotional videos of the song performances, the game uses 3D models to recreate the choreography used during live concerts instead of the simple 2D pop-ups used in School Idol Festival.
  • Funny Background Event: During the opening movie trailer when Emma, Rina, and Hanamaru are getting together, Nozomi attempts to grope Dia in the background.
  • Borrowed Catchphrase: To prep themselves up, Setsuna and Rin perform Ruby's "Ganbaruby!"note  alongside Ruby herself in the opening movie trailer.
  • Loads and Loads of Characters: The Official Key Visual promotional image as well as the opening movie trailer depicts all 27 main characters interacting together.

Edited by lenne18 on Jun 28th 2019 at 1:48:12 AM

Pichu-kun ...
...
Jun 27th 2019 at 1:10:12 PM

Zera: Myths Awaken has had everything commented out. The Fairy Companion one should probably be rewritten, but the rest aren't speculative. They're from demos and info from the dev team.

Jun 27th 2019 at 2:01:25 PM

Re: Borrowed Catchphrase, for full context, it also needs to establish that the phrase in question is, in fact, a catchphrase, whose catchphrase it is, and who's doing the borrowing. The trope description also notes that it's often used as an Ironic Echo or Meaningful Echo, or done unintentionally which would be Got Me Doing It. If any of those are the case, it would be good to make note of it.

In Art-Shifted Sequel, I would rephrase "based on," which again, reads as a statement about a work which you have not experienced. Don't speculate about the final work. Describe what happens in the material you do have access to. However, since the material you have access to is not, itself, a sequel, I'd call this one of those tropes that's best left off until the work is released.

Loads and Loads of Characters is speculative. The trope refers to a work that has a surplus of regularly occurring characters, but we have no way of knowing that all of the pictured characters are in fact main characters in the final work.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 27th 2019 at 2:16:36 AM


Total posts: 1,615
Top

How well does it match the trope?

Example of:

/

Media sources:

/

Report