Unreleased Work Page Cleanup (Speculation, Spoilers, ZCE etc.)

I feel like you're overreacting when you say "It's been tried, and it causes more problems than it solves, as it's typically used as a way for people to try to trope the final work as if it were already out while paying lip service to the rules against Speculative Troping". As far as I know, there's one other page where troping a demo in a separate folder has happened (Cris Tales). You pointed out one trope that was being kinda speculative, I apologized for that and removed it. This issue is also not inherently caused by putting demo tropes in a folder.

The alternative is to keep saying "In the demo" over and over, which quickly gets redundant. Given the choice between that annoying-to-read writing style, and just having one folder that states once that these tropes apply only to the demo, I think the latter is the cleaner solution.

Given all the various loopholes and cute little workarounds tropers have consistently tried to get around the very simple principle that we shouldn't trope works we haven't experienced, I don't think it's an overreaction at all to look askance at anything that smacks of it.

When I say "it's been tried," I'm thinking specifically about the attempt to put pre-release, marketing-derived tropes into Advertising.Pokemon Sword And Shield, which was a bit of a minor disaster. I suggested it half-sarcastically, was as surprised as anyone when it was actually tried, and to no great surprise, tropers proceeded to treat it as though it were a normal work page and continue to put anything they could glean, sort-of-halfway-predict, or just plain make up about a game that none of them have ever actually touched on there as if it were ironclad fact about a game that's been out for years.

I also don't think there's anything "clean" about having a work page with a single folder for every trope because the only significant source we have to go on is a demo or trailer.

The idea is to create a format that will work both before and after the work's release, with a minimum of post-release cleanup necessary. And to be frank, I simply don't trust the troper base to actually go through a "demo tropes" folder or heading systematically and decide what to leave there and what to move onto the main work section upon the work's release.

I find it much more likely that they just delete the folder markup and leave a bunch of inapplicable or half-contexted examples in the main example section.

Putting a citation in every example entry means that that example entry is still accurate even if no one ever touches it again or the game is canceled tomorrow. That's worth a little bit of repetition in my book.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 25th 2019 at 11:09:39 AM

Well since Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work says not to put images for moments subpages, I removed the pics for Awesome.Spider Man Far From Home and Funny.Spider Man Far From Home

Honestly, I don't think any option is clean. A page full of trailer tropes for a released work is technically clean, but will confuse a new reader all the same. It is probably the best compromise though (as the mods have decided).

I mean, with entries individually cited, worst-case scenario nobody bothers to update them upon work release and the entries are still technically accurate.

Best-case scenario, someone sits down at their computer on release day fresh from watching the movie or playing the game or whatever, hot to add a bunch of applicable tropes, finds the tropes are already there but cited to the demo/trailer/whatever, and rewords those that apply to the work proper to remove the citation. And those that don't apply to the final work are fine as they are, because they're talking about a trailer or demo or whatever, to which they still apply.

I like that worst-case scenario a lot better than the worst-case scenario of someone thoughtlessly deleting folder markup that says "Demo Tropes" and making a big mess, and I think the best-case scenario is a lot more likely than someone painstakingly sorting through a "Demo Tropes" folder full of entries that are phrased as though they apply to the final work when not all of them do.

There's no perfect solution short of disallowing all troping of unreleased works outright, but given those solutions that have been put forward, citing entries individually is easily the best we've found.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 25th 2019 at 11:53:21 AM

Scream: Resurrection has a few issues. It does have a release date and a trailer but still....

• And Starring: Paris Jackson gets this billing in the first look teaser. OK
• The Bus Came Back: Roger L. Jackson reprises his role of Ghostface for the first time since 2011's Scream 4, while the classic Ghostface mask makes a return after being absent from the MTV series. Wouldn't Role Reprisal be more accurate for Roger L Jackson because it's not the same continuity? The Bus Came Back is for characters AFAIK so I don't think a mask counts as one.
• Casting Gag:
  • This isn't the first time Keke Palmer has starred in a horror-slasher series with the word "scream" in the title.
  • Jessica Sula plays Liv, which was also the name of a character hers often interacted with on Skins. Both shoehorning IMO. Casting Gag is not for amusing coincidences nor for fetched similarities
• The Cheerleader: Liv is a member of the cheer squad. ZCE. The Cheerleader is also for chearleaders who are portrayed as either bitches or dumbasses.
• Dead Star Walking: Paris Jackson (daughter of the late Michael) fills the "first kill" slot previously occupied by Drew Barrymore (Scream), Jada Pinkett Smith & Omar Epps (2), Liev Schreiber (3), Britt Robertson & Aimee Teegarden (4), and Bella Thorne (MTV). Speculation. The trailer could be misleading.
• Final Girl: A rare inversion for the Scream franchise as well as the slasher genre as a whole; Deion is the first male protagonist of a Scream entry. Speculation. We don't know if the Deion is going to survive the season.
• Goth: Beth favors this style. ZCE
• Lovable Jock: Deion is a popular football player for his school. ZCE Where's the loveable part?
• Monochrome Casting: Unlike the original films and the MTV series, which were largely white in casting, Resurrection features a black protagonist and a largely black cast. ok I guess
• Soapbox Sadie: Kym is described this way in press materials. It has been established that Word of God alone isn't tropable.

Do you have objections?

Edited by Silverblade2 on Jun 25th 2019 at 10:01:48 AM

• And Starring: Paris Jackson gets this billing in the first look teaser. Ok enough, although I would prefer that the awkward "this" wording be rephrased.
• The Bus Came Back: Roger L. Jackson reprises his role of Ghostface for the first time since 2011's Scream 4, while the classic Ghostface mask makes a return after being absent from the MTV series. Agreed that this definitely doesn't fit under The Bus Came Back, although it may fit another another trope. It also needs a citation; right now it reads as though it's referring to a work that it can't possibly be referring to, since it hasn't been released yet and nobody has seen it.
• Casting Gag Agreed, cut as shoehorning. The various "gag" and "in hindsight" tropes tend to be shoehorning magnets.
• The Cheerleader: Liv is a member of the cheer squad. Agreed, this is a ZCE and possible shoehorning. I'm skeptical that full context can be gleaned from a teaser trailer. Maybe I'm wrong and this can be fleshed out, but if I'm right it should be cut.
• Dead Star Walking: Paris Jackson (daughter of the late Michael) fills the "first kill" slot previously occupied by Drew Barrymore (Scream), Jada Pinkett Smith & Omar Epps (2), Liev Schreiber (3), Britt Robertson & Aimee Teegarden (4), and Bella Thorne (MTV). Seconded, delete as speculation.
• Final Girl: A rare inversion for the Scream franchise as well as the slasher genre as a whole; Deion is the first male protagonist of a Scream entry. Seconded, delete as speculation.
• Goth: Beth favors this style. Seconded. ZCE; hide with comment tags.
• Lovable Jock: Deion is a popular football player for his school. Seconded. ZCE; hide with comment tags.
• Monochrome Casting: Unlike the original films and the MTV series, which were largely white in casting, Resurrection features a black protagonist and a largely black cast. The Weasel Word "largely" makes me suspect shoehorning. I doubt we'll be able to be certain about this one until the final work comes out; it's possible there are several minor characters of other ethnicities not featured in the trailers, or that the work is set in a place where an all-black cast is realistic, either of which would disqualify it as an example. Motion to delete as speculation.
• Soapbox Sadie: Kym is described this way in press materials. This would be a ZCE anyway; the fact that it consists only of a vague citation to a non-tropable material makes this doubly cuttable.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 25th 2019 at 1:24:46 AM

The worst case scenario for individually cited entries would be someone removing all the trailer citations from all the tropes on the page without trying to change them into how they actually happen in the final work. In other words, exactly the same problem as the worst-case scenario for a single folder containing the tropes for the demo.

Except less likely, because it would take more effort, and people are fundamentally lazy. (-:

I mean, the only way to absolutely prevent that from happening would be to disallow troping of unreleased works altogether, and while that's an option that I would support, it's also one that has been proposed and rejected.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 25th 2019 at 3:14:27 AM

Troper ~Gregzilla has decided to remove citations (and, baffingly, sometimes all context entirely, turning what had been a perfectly cromulent example into a Zero-Context Example) on The Sinking City.

Calling for a moderator revert.

Interesting decision. It's been reverted.

Thanks!

A quick heads up: the first gameplay trailer for Shin Sakura Wars will be released today (June 26) at 8:00 PM - 9:30 PM JST; some tropes that will be featured in the game are also bound to appear there. Here's the live stream link again if anyone's interested:

Edited by gjjones on Jun 25th 2019 at 2:18:18 PM

What's the reason for commenting out all the tropes for this page?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/LoveLiveSchoolIdolFestivalAllStars

Most of the tropes are not speculative appearing in both the opening (which was released by the official YT channel) and announcements during various live streams.

The page was blanked as a whole, without any specific reference to individual entries. Possibly without any familiarity to the work.

That said, did those announcements have footage or were they just creators talking (i.e. Word of God). Word of God on its own is not a valid citation, and if there is footage you should cite the footage itself.

Where'd You Go, Bernadette? has had only one entry since the page's creation in 2017, and that entry is both speculative and a ZCE.

Motion to cutlist.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 26th 2019 at 5:55:08 AM

Okay, now that the Shin Sakura Wars stream is over, I want to give some ideas about adding tropes here based on the gameplay footage:

• The Bus Came Back: Returning to the mainline series is Sumire Kanzaki, who last appeared in Sakura Wars 4: Fall in Love, Maidens before her actress Michie Tomizawa temporarily retired from the role in 2002. In the gameplay footage released during Sega's June 2019 announcement livestream, she is the general manager of the Imperial Theater, and by extension, the commander of the Imperial Combat Revue.
• Oh, Crap!: In the gameplay footage released during Sega's June 2019 announcement livestream, Clarice gets utterly shocked upon seeing Kamiyama for the first time, asking why is there a man here.

I'll add more to it when I get the chance.

Edited by gjjones on Jun 26th 2019 at 8:51:42 AM

The Bus Came Back is about a character who was explicitly written out of the plot being written back in. How was the character written out, and how were they written back in? Without that context, it's a ZCE. I suspect this may be one of those tropes that is so dependent on the full story of the final work that it can't be given proper context pre-release.

According to the trope description, Oh, Crap! is "The moment at which a character realizes that something really, REALLY bad is about to happen. Either that, or it already has, and they are in big trouble because of it."

Your entry text does not establish proper context for that either. Why is a man being present an indication that "something really, REALLY bad" is either about to happen or already has? Why is the character in big trouble now?

All right. Regarding the Sumire example, she was written out of the main series due to Michie Tomizawa's retirement. In the Su-Mi-Re OVA, which was made in honor of Tomizawa's retirement, Sumire was forced to retire due to her being unable to maintain the spiritual energy levels needed to operate a Koubu. And the "Oh, Crap!" trope regarding Clarice is a misuse after all.

Since the actual stream link is no longer active, here's the official Youtube link to the livestream for future reference.

By the way, the character profiles are now available on the official website, so would those work as a source?

Edited by gjjones on Jun 26th 2019 at 9:24:49 AM

HighCrate, I get that maintaining this sandbox among with the other stuff on the wiki can be tiring and people want to take shortcuts, but did you really think I randomly added a 1935 film there?

A five second's search would have revealed that there's a new film called The Informer coming out this year. I absolutely did not see it coming that we had a page for the old one.

I'll also try to fix the new bluelinks like the Bernadette one today or tomorrow.

P.S. Can someone edit Imminent Arrivals out of Administrivia index before it gets officially cutlisted?

Edited by NTC3 on Jun 26th 2019 at 6:11:23 AM

Actually, I asked on the Edit locked thread.

Edited by gjjones on Jun 26th 2019 at 9:23:32 AM

@HalfFaust

There are screenshots and clips being promoted by the voice actresses so yes, but being live streams, it's lost without a link (if they even archived it).

Teen Titans Go! vs. Teen Titans was created almost two hours ago. It has a trailer, but no release date beyond "later this year". Motion to cutlist?

Seconded, and adding to the cutlist. The three entries listed all have severe context and speculation problems in addition to not meeting the minimum criteria for pageworthiness.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 26th 2019 at 12:46:16 PM

Understood. I put the trivia page on there as well, since the only thing there is commented out speculation.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jun 26th 2019 at 4:05:02 AM