TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Unreleased Work Page Cleanup (Speculation, Spoilers, ZCE etc.)

Go To

This is a thread for checking up on pages for works that have not been released yet, to make sure that they are not straying into rampant speculation or posting crazy behind the scenes spoilers. You can bring both individual examples or entire pages to attention here.

In extreme cases, any page can be locked, but hopefully that won't be necessary.

(As these pages often are hit with zero-context examples and shoehorning as well, all four - speculation, spoilers, ZCEs, and shoehorning may get addressed simultaneously.)

The policy governing this effort is Creating A Work Page For An Unreleased Work. Cleanup is being tracked using the Unreleased Works sandbox.

All pages for unreleased works should include a %% comment at the top of the page, confirming the policy and linking to this thread and the Administrivia page. It doesn't have to be exactly the same as the example provided here, but this provides a template to work with.

     Template for the unreleased work comment 
%%
%% Speculative troping is not allowed on TV Tropes.
%%
%% We trope what DOES happen in works, not what MIGHT happen or is LIKELY to happen.
%%
%% For unreleased works where all we have to go on is advertising and other supplemental materials, we have some detailed guidelines, which can be found at Administrivia/CreatingAWorkPageForAnUnreleasedWork.
%%
%% NOTE - these rules also mean that unreleased works should only have one page image, and that image should NOT be changed again until the work is released.
%%
%% If you have questions, please consult the Unreleased Work Speculation Cleanup thread at https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15514631230A64268600
%%
%% Thank you.
%%

Edited by Mrph1 on Feb 10th 2024 at 8:16:52 PM

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#1076: Jun 21st 2019 at 12:48:04 PM

[up]Like with any other trope, you have to mention which source shows the character wearing the costume.

nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1077: Jun 21st 2019 at 12:49:11 PM

It would be good to note that there are multiple reasons something can be commented out. We have more criteria than just "this was in the trailer". Lacking context, for one.

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#1078: Jun 21st 2019 at 12:53:12 PM

Lack of context is a huge problem wiki-wide, but it seems especially common on pre-release work pages, likely because the materials available pre-release often don't offer much in the way of context.

Even if you feel reasonably assured that a trope is present, if there isn't enough context in the materials we have access to now to prevent a ZCE, the trope shouldn't be listed until we have enough context to do so properly.

For example, in Astral Chain:

  • Speak in Unison: The player character and sibling both talk at the same time during the announcement trailer. E3 trailer also showcases this at its climax.

All this entry says is "this trope happens." That's not enough context. How is the trope used? What is its significance? The trope description says,

The Creepy Monotone this naturally creates make this a favorite characteristic of the Hive Mind (especially ones linked psychically), Creepy Twins and people under Mass Hypnosis. It also turns up when reciting Badass Boasts or other well-known texts, where it's intended to show unity, strength in numbers, and discipline. A common enough joke is mixing this with an Expospeak Gag (especially coincidentally).

Are any of the related tropes linked here present? What is the effect on the audience? What is the narrative significance? Why does the trope happen?

Say something beyond "this trope happened."

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 21st 2019 at 1:00:05 AM

NTC3 Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1079: Jun 21st 2019 at 1:00:37 PM

All right, I edited Astral Chain, Age of Wonders: Planetfall and Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order following the discussion here. Fire Emblem: Three Houses was already given the edits I suggested here as well.

Currently in the process of cleansing the Imminent Arrivals page in preparation for it being cut. Would be nice if at least a few tropers would consider filling in Summary.Video Games, which already got dozens of new redlinks in addition to the hundreds it already has, and will get dozens more by the time I am done.

The other Summary pages "probably" aren't that bad, though I am yet to check on those. Either way, released video games are also the easiest pages to create articles for, since thanks to YouTube, that requires neither funds nor piracy.

[nja] Messed a bit more with the apparently controversial unison example on the Astral Chain page. Not sure if it's in its best possible form now, but at least it has more context now, right?

[nja] Oh, and I added tropes to the Ys IX: Monstrum Nox page as well.

Edited by NTC3 on Jun 21st 2019 at 1:18:32 AM

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#1080: Jun 21st 2019 at 1:04:47 PM

~Shiny Cotton Candy: If an edit is being discussed, and the correction can be easily figured out, you can write a fixed version too since you clearly care enough to call out the mistakes.

  • sad That wouldn't have worked. I would have guessed context was — The preview trailer shows Dvar Foremen have a powerful unarmed ability. The on-screen unit description says that it breaks through "rocks and monsters alike". — and this would have misrepresented the previews. sad

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
snivyTsutarja Since: May, 2018
#1081: Jun 21st 2019 at 1:13:53 PM

Noted. I'll keep monitoring The Clone Wars page, as of right now, we still don't have a release date.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#1082: Jun 21st 2019 at 1:15:01 PM

[up][up]In that case, it came across as not assuming good faith in NTC3's paring those description with those tropes. My apologizes, as that probably wasn't your intent.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Jun 21st 2019 at 4:15:26 AM

My musician page
HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#1083: Jun 21st 2019 at 2:19:34 PM

It's certainly not a problem specific to unreleased works, but this feels like a good time to mention that the common troper tic phrasing "...is this," "...is one," "...is one of these," etc. always trips my radar. At best it's Word Cruft, at worst it's a sign of a Zero-Context Example.

Remember that a trope entry on a work page shouldn't assume that the reader is already familiar with the trope, just as a work entry on a trope page shouldn't assume that the reader is already familiar with the work.

For example, the Wall Run entry on Ys IX: Monstrum Nox previously read:

  • Wall Run: The protagonist is seen doing this in the gameplay reveal - not in the usual form where they lean their body at an angle to a wall and run, but literally run straight up it without breaking a stride, as if gravity didn't exist. It is promised that a player can run up any wall.

I've changed it to:

  • Wall Run: In the gameplay reveal, the protagonist runs straight up a wall without breaking a stride, as if gravity didn't exist.

See how much cleaner that is? No awkward, no vague "this" phrasing, no passive voice, no unnecessary description of a way the trope could have played out but didn't, just a simple description of what happens.

Also, not for nothing, no vague passive-voiced speculation about what someone somewhere has apparently promised that players will be able to do in a game that no one who edits this wiki can play.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 21st 2019 at 6:12:33 AM

BZL8 Yes. from Somewhere Since: Apr, 2017 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Yes.
#1084: Jun 21st 2019 at 3:04:07 PM

Summoned here. I wanted to ask a question. For the upcoming DLC characters that are coming to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, namely the Hero and Banjo-Kazooie, does the Spectulative Troping rule apply to them, as it appears the tropes listed for them are based off of trailers?

Edited by BZL8 on Jun 21st 2019 at 5:05:12 AM

Primis Since: Nov, 2010
#1085: Jun 21st 2019 at 4:07:51 PM

Toy Story 4 is in theaters now. Should its page be unlocked?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
ElasticPleurodeline Since: Apr, 2017
#1087: Jun 21st 2019 at 6:16:33 PM

Chiming in with some questions/updates related to The Lion King 2019, since there's been a bunch of new TV spots in the last week or two and I wanted to update the page a bit. (Again, apologies for the length.)

Questions:

About the "Previews" section

Is there a guideline or limit on how many trailers/TV spots can be posted in the "Previews" section of an article? Are the short 30-second TV spots ignored altogether in favor of just things that could constitute as full-length trailers (1-3 minutes)? There's more than a handful of them at this point and most of these share the same footage, just with different audio and literally one or two new shots for each one. At least as long as the movie's still in a pre-release state, I find it might be useful (and I just prefer it for layout purposes) to have every trailer/TV spot linked in that section, and only directly mention a specific one in the main body text if that trope/example only appears in that one specific trailer/TV spot. (As opposed to being a shot featured in multiple promo pieces.)

About the Elephant Graveyard example

My earlier question regarding what to do with the Elephant Graveyard example still stands. (For now it's still in the "live" version of the page as a downplayed example.) The overall case: it's unclear whether any of the large animal remains seen in the clips from the trailers are actually of elephants, but based on interviews and reports it's still generally being referred to by the creators and others as "the Elephant Graveyard" and it plays the same role in the story as the creepy place with a greyed-out color palette where the hyenas reside and Simba and Nala encounter them for the first time.

Someone argued that it should simply be cut entirely if there aren't any elephant remains. Here's the relevant parts of the trope description that I'm using to argue in favor of this being included as an example, Loxodonta skeletons or not:

It also makes a very impressive and gloomy set pieces, as your heroes walk in-between the giant skeletons. Besides the protagonists, of course, it's rare for any other living animals to be in such a place. If they are, however, expect nasty scavenging creatures, like vultures or hyenas.

The description also has this paragraph and examples in the page are used on these grounds, including one wherein everything is absolutely small but the size relationship between the protagonists and the skeletons are the same:

In speculative fiction, it's not rare for elephant to be substituted for some very big creature, giving us "Dragon Graveyards" or "Space Whale Graveyards" or something similar. In a Prehistoria, Lost World or 1 Million B.C.-type setting, a "Dinosaur Graveyard" is likely to make an appearance.

Based on this, it seems we're left with these options, at least as I see it:

  • Call it an aversion: [If] There aren't any elephant remains - because elephant graveyards aren't exactly real - but it's still a foreboding location where skeletons of large animals have accumulated, regardless of how many of them were brought there as a result of hyena hunting/scavenging.
  • Keep it as a downplayed trope: [If] Only a few of the remains are distinctly elephantine — again because elephant graveyards aren't real, at least not as how the myth plays out — but you still have all of the other elements that are laid out in the trope description, i.e., foreboding place with large skeletal remains that dwarf the traveling protagonists and is the residence of threatening hyenas.
  • Call it a subverted trope: Same reasoning as calling it downplayed, with the added factor of audience expectation given that this is a remake of a well-known movie that features probably the most popular example of this trope in media (a picture of it is the header image on the trope's page!), and redesigning it in the 2019 version was a conscious decision on part of the development team, both for artistic reasons related to the photorealistic medium and just to change things up to give this version some unique elements.

Updates/to be done soon:

  • Re-added and updated the Mythology Gag section that had been cut entirely for unexplained reasons, although I hid an example I gave earlier that relies entirely on a single non-promotional report.
  • Re-added the Adaptation Name Change section (also cut with no specific reason stated) with slightly changed language to make it seem less "speculative", specifically why the two male hyenas had their names changed.
  • Re-added Seldom-Seen Species, though with some new and different examples. On that note, the original one that got the example hidden because she hasn't appeared in any promo material (Amy Sedaris' elephant shrew character, which also got her Canon Foreigner example hidden) is still hidden.

bwburke94 I am mad scientist! It's so cool! from 1.048596% (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
I am mad scientist! It's so cool!
#1088: Jun 21st 2019 at 10:17:38 PM

Re: Smash DLC

Because Smash proper is a released work, the speculation rules don't apply per se, but it's still good form to cite the trailer - especially for Banjo & Kazooie, as their section on the website isn't even up yet.

2025: the year it all ends?
HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#1089: Jun 22nd 2019 at 5:15:57 AM

Ok, new issue: What do I cite if almost every source includes something? I'm referring to character name tropes again. It sort of feels wrong in any permutation -just putting one is sort of inaccurate because it's not just a trope of that trailer (though that could be said of about 90% of the citations) putting all of them is very messy but in a very silly literal sense is more true.

Also someone else may wish to fix up Fire Emblem: Three Houses because I'm not sure if me doing it would be edit warring.

Edited by HalfFaust on Jun 22nd 2019 at 5:16:41 AM

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#1090: Jun 22nd 2019 at 7:33:52 AM

~Elastic Pleurodeline

Is there a guideline or limit on how many trailers/TV spots can be posted in the "Previews" section of an article?
We don't have any rules yet, what do you think they should be?
About the Elephant Graveyard example
The problem isn't really just "what's dead?", because the trope says "a place where elephants instinctively go when nearing the end of their days", which means just having skeletons isn't enough to count as the trope. Consider This Way to Certain Death, which says "many other people in the same circumstances have left evidence of their demise". Does the trailer indicate that the bones are there because it is the lair of a powerful enemy, or because the animals are dying of old age? It's only an elephant graveyard when large animals go there to die and decay, not when (young) large animals are killed due to a pack of predators. ~High Crate commmented it out, as Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work says we cannot use Word of God or All There in the Manual until after the work is released. Are the names used in any of the trailers?
~Half Faust
What do I cite if almost every source includes something?
Just the first one should work. Like adding a new character in an ongoing television show:
  • Alliterative Name: Lana Lang is introduced in the third episode, consistently appearing after that point.
  • Adaptation Name Change: When Geribald shows up in the second episode, it's clear that the adaptation has changed his name to Archibald.
  • Antagonist Title: I'm including this one to make a point; not all name tropes may work. Name tropes that tie to the character's role in the story are verboten, and name tropes related to their job may not have enough context from the previews alone.

someone else may wish to fix up Fire Emblem: Three Houses because I'm not sure if me doing it would be edit warring.
After discussion and consensus, edits may be added back by anyone. I like to convince the person who removes my edits to put them back, but if I can get them to agree to the new wording, I put them back myself.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
BZL8 Yes. from Somewhere Since: Apr, 2017 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Yes.
#1091: Jun 22nd 2019 at 10:04:20 AM

Gonna give a heads-up for the page on Midsommar, Khugol apparently restored the commented-out tropes without consulting the thread, their reasoning being "It's out now.".

It is still not out just because the film critics and media sources got to see it. It's still not released for the general audiences.

Should I send notifiers?

RallyBot2 (Elder Troper) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
BZL8 Yes. from Somewhere Since: Apr, 2017 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Yes.
#1093: Jun 22nd 2019 at 10:08:16 AM

[up] Done.

Edited by BZL8 on Jun 22nd 2019 at 12:12:12 PM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#1094: Jun 22nd 2019 at 10:43:24 AM

"It's out now" doesn't necessarily mean those commented out tropes now apply

ElasticPleurodeline Since: Apr, 2017
#1095: Jun 22nd 2019 at 12:04:53 PM

Re: proposed rules for Preview section...

I'm personally of the inclination that for pre-release movies at least, everything gets posted up-front in chronological release order so long as it's got something unique relative to the other trailers/TV spots. (New footage, audio, etc.) Any tropes referencing a specific bit of material can just mention it by title without a direct link since it'd be redundant to have multiple links to the same thing.

After the movie comes out, I like the idea of weeding out the short TV spots and such so that you just have the 'actual' trailers, i.e. full-length ones that you'd be likely to see in a movie theater that play for anywhere from 1-3 minutes. Usually there's only about 3 or 4 of these per movie, at least since I've been paying attention in recent years: an initial teaser trailer, then a full-length trailer, then maybe a second full-length trailer or an "extended look", and then a extended TV spot about a month in advance, usually to advertise that tickets have gone on sale. Those would be what I'd consider permanent fixtures that stay in the Previews. I know there's tropes that deal specifically with trailers/TV spots and how their marketing is different to the final product, so anything that got weeded out can be specifically mentioned and linked to there with their relevant trope examples.

If it bothers people that much, I'll just hide the Elephant Graveyard example until more comes of it later or the movie comes out. I don't think we'll ever actually get a clear explanation from the movie with regards to how all of those remains got there; some are definitely too big for hyenas to have moved from elsewhere, but whether those mega-herbivores went there seeking water or something and bodies just accumulated as they died of thirst (which is the real-world naturally occurring scenario for an "elephant graveyard" of sorts) or they were traveling through and were actually killed by hyenas is and probably will remain unclear.

NTC3 Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1096: Jun 23rd 2019 at 2:42:40 AM

All right, I finally cleansed the Imminent Arrivals page. There's now a whole lot more stuff in the Future Works for you to manage, and I am hoping others will take effort to check out the summary pages for the already released un-created works as well.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#1097: Jun 23rd 2019 at 3:03:55 AM

[up] Thank you but it looks like there're some misplaced works. I don't think Scoob!,Its A Wonderful Sponge or The King's Man have trailers.

NTC3 Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1098: Jun 23rd 2019 at 4:52:54 AM

[up] Yeah, I only noticed that they have official release dates, and so brought them into the first category without checking for trailers.

Fixed that now, along with editing the third category description a bit, to make it clearer that the trope-worthy material matters more than the release date.

Edited by NTC3 on Jun 23rd 2019 at 4:54:04 AM

Pichu-kun ... Since: Jan, 2001
...
#1099: Jun 23rd 2019 at 10:16:19 AM

Yo-kai Watch 4 was completely commented-out. Was it discussed here? Most, if not all, of the examples are non-speculative.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#1100: Jun 23rd 2019 at 10:31:39 AM

The majority of context here suggests that the game is available to general audiences.

  • Art Evolution: The game features less stylized, more realistically proportioned character designs for humans. How do we know the game is less stylized?
  • The Bus Came Back: After getting shafted in the third game, Katie returns as a fully playable character, albeit not as an alternative to Nate like in the first two games.How do we know she is a fully playable character?
  • Costume Evolution: Nate has switched out of his previous red jacket with an orange version of his original shirt underneath it. Now he wears an open red shirt that has a white star on its sleeve, a blue undershirt, and brown sneakers.How do we know?
  • Feelies: The Japanese release of the game comes with two Arks that can be used to unlock the Triple Nyan Claw.This needs to be "simplified for non-fans". It means nothing to me, as-is.
  • Opposites Attract: Ray O'Light (an energetic sun yo-kai) and Dridzelda (a gloomy rain yo-kai) had a daughter together.How do we know?
  • Serial Escalation: The game is a grand journey that goes beyond the time and space of the world the protagonists live in. It features three different eras as well (1950s, 2010s, and 2040s).Again, how do we know?
  • Spiritual Successor: With Ni no Kuni II: Revenant Kingdom. Due to switching to a pure Action RPG approach, this game will likely be the closest Ni No Kuni 1 sequel fans will get due to its combat system, given what little of the gameplay has been seen so far. The words "will likely be" is a huge sign that this example is speculating, but this one at least cites what motivates the speculation, so... points.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Total posts: 3,552
Top