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And I Must Scream

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4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#1: Feb 24th 2019 at 9:46:31 PM

The description talks about it's a more horrible variant of Fate Worse than Death where death isn't even an option. You're suffering, and most likely unable to interact in some way, for a really long time, if not eternity.

Some examples and wicks I found, however, describes someone being "aware, but helpless while something's happening with their body" (like being body-controlled, or transformed into a monster, etc).

So what is And I Must Scream, really?

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Tharkun140 The Arch-Douchebag Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Arch-Douchebag
#2: Mar 3rd 2019 at 6:33:15 PM

If in those examples suicide is still an option and/or death isn't significantly postponed, then they are simply incorrect and should be moved to Fate Worse than Death instead, if they fit there that is.

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#3: Mar 3rd 2019 at 6:54:29 PM

Being locked in for the rest of your life sounds like extended suffering to me. But I would have to see the example before making a call.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Mar 4th 2019 at 2:56:30 AM

And I Must Scream is a subtrope of Fate Worse than Death, talking specifically about experiencing pain but with an inability to react to it. Fate Worse than Death is about prolonged suffering, such that you would consider death to be more merciful.

Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#5: Mar 4th 2019 at 8:53:35 AM

I've struggled with determining whether this is The Same, but More Specific or a Ridiculously Similar Trope as opposed to a legitimate sub-trope.

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KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Mar 4th 2019 at 10:10:55 AM

There are examples of And I Must Scream that are temporary, as it is evoking an idea that, if permanent, would be one possible Fate Worse than Death.

Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#7: Mar 4th 2019 at 10:21:18 AM

[up] That does make sense. Space Chimps has a temporary example of And I Must Scream.

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4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#8: Mar 4th 2019 at 6:24:50 PM

Mini-wick check


Manga.My Hero Academia
  • Body Horror: Some Quirks alter their user in truly bizarre and disturbing ways, though thanks to how ubiquitous Quirks are, this isn't usually a problem for them. This leads to cases of Unusually Uninteresting Sight fairly often. For example, Seiji Shishikura has the Meatball Quirk, first seen in Chapter 106. This allows him to control raw human flesh, including his own. His main combat style is to detach his limbs into flying globs of flesh, and the moment they touch his enemy, he's free to warp and compress their body until they're a sentient globe of misshapen flesh. Fortunately, dealing enough damage to Seiji would break the Meat Prison.
While it is something the victims can't escape from easily, it also doesn't happen for long, so it (probably) doesn't fit

Videogame.Spyro The Dragon 1998

  • And I Must Scream: In the first game the dragons are frozen in stone but are still conscious and aware. Since some of the dragons' locations are pretty well-hidden, if Spyro is put in the hands of a player with less perseverance... well, try not to think about it too much. It's even Played for Laughs sometimes.
Might be a proper example, but still puts an emphasis on "still conscious and aware"

Characters.Warcraft Player Characters

May count, but not sure. How would you judge this?

AvengersEarthsMightiestHeroes.Tropes A To E

  • And I Must Scream: Ultron co-ops Tony's armor, making him fight the Avengers WITH HIM STILL IN THE ARMOR. He gets only a few brief moments where his com systems work to try and warn Thor that something has control of his armor.
    • Also, the Realm of Silence Loki is exiled to in “My Brother, My Enemy”, but then again Loki is such a Magnificent Bastard that it doesn't really faze him.
      • Which then carries over to Loki's fate after his big plan fails at the season one finale. True to Norse mythology, he is trussed up and left in the care of a giant serpent which constantly DRIPS VENOM INTO HIS EYES. Yikes.
      • Nasty enough by itself, but remember - Loki's immortal. His eyes won't eventually lose their capacity to feel pain: nor can he escape by thirst, starvation or old age. He's there until Odin forgives him or until the world ends... and Odin isn't a particularly forgiving god.
    • Amora used Chemistro's gun to turn his armor to gold. He remains conscious for what is implied to be several hours before Tony and Janet find him and call for help.
Iron Man definitely doesn't count, it's the "aware, but helpless" example I talked about. Loki may count. Chemistro doesn't count either.

WesternAnimation.Sonic Satam

  • And I Must Scream: Roboticized victims remain fully aware of everything they do while under Robotnik's control. As Uncle Chuck states when restored: "we just can't do anything about it."
Also doesn't count the trope's definition.


This is merely to show what kind of misuse we have, not to check how widespread it is.

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Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#9: Mar 4th 2019 at 6:34:15 PM

I'm personally in favor of redefining the two to clarify that the two tropes are not duplicates or TSBMS.

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4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#10: Mar 5th 2019 at 11:25:28 PM

[up] Between what? This and Fate Worse than Death?

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Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#11: Mar 7th 2019 at 9:03:10 AM

[up][up] I do think that the Sonic SATAM example can might qualify depending on how long it lasts. Being briefly controlled isn't an example, but being forced to spend an extended length of time helplessly watching as your body is used to attack those you loved should count.

I agree that the others are not examples since they don't last long enough.

Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#12: Mar 7th 2019 at 11:21:16 AM

[up][up]Correct.

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4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#13: Mar 7th 2019 at 3:53:56 PM

[up] "but being forced to spend an extended length of time helplessly watching as your body is used to attack those you loved should count."

I thought the trope only counts cases of incarceration/sealing in a can and the like?

The "aware, but helpless" part sounds like a trope of its own, by the way, just that it doesn't fit AIMS.

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KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#14: Mar 7th 2019 at 5:16:26 PM

No, the entire trope is about being aware, helpless, unable to react or find relief. It is not the trope if:

  • They are not aware (when released they react like they woke up from a nap).
  • They have some control over their situation (they can fight back through sheer force of will).
  • They find some way to alleviate the pain (in the sense that the pain itself is temporary).

eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#15: Mar 8th 2019 at 1:44:00 AM

And I Must Scream is a fate with no relief in the foreseeable future. So an example with "extended time" is a dubious one because it would imply a defined end to the peril.

Edited by eroock on Mar 8th 2019 at 11:46:39 AM

Primis Since: Nov, 2010
#16: Mar 8th 2019 at 10:52:10 AM

[up] The entire third paragraph of the description talks about how it's possible for it to end at some point in the future.

Edited by Primis on Mar 8th 2019 at 11:52:27 AM

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#17: Mar 8th 2019 at 12:35:22 PM

Yes, and the emphasis is on foreseeable. A ten-year punishment is not an example, while an eternal punishment that ended after only five years is an example. It isn't about the actual duration but about the expectation that no matter what happens, you're cursed to remain that way forever.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#18: Mar 8th 2019 at 3:38:49 PM

[up] So the "just aware but helpless" part isn't this trope, right? That's what I want to ask from the start...

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4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#19: Mar 18th 2019 at 7:21:09 AM

Alternate Identity Amnesia even says that "Contrast And I Must Scream, when the lycanthrope is aware of what's going on but helpless to stop their wolf-self."

That's definitely not what And I Must Scream is, yet it's what many pages think it is.

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#20: Mar 18th 2019 at 8:06:02 AM

The component "aware, but helpless" is required for And I Must Scream, but not sufficient on its own. I think you could build a valid Missing Supertrope Syndrome argument, where "aware, but helpless" is the only component, with And I Must Scream as a Sub-Trope when the condition is expected to be unending.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#21: Mar 18th 2019 at 2:33:07 PM

[up] Sounds like a good idea, actually.

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FerrousFaucet Since: Feb, 2014
#22: Nov 5th 2024 at 2:43:34 AM

And I Must Scream still has problems. A quick search of Trope Talk shows that the problems have been known and discussed for years. Is it appropriate to continue the discussion here, or start a new thread about it?

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#23: Nov 6th 2024 at 3:09:36 AM

...well, by bumping a five-year-old thread you've kind of already answered that question. Might have been better worth bringing up on ATT, or some other thread, or something, if you weren't sure what thread to discuss it on.

I think it's now on Tropes Needing TRS, for the record.

FerrousFaucet Since: Feb, 2014
#24: Nov 6th 2024 at 11:16:28 AM

Yes, I saw it on that list. It's marked with and asterisk, which means it needs "extra discussion", and someone over at TRS told me to bring it up at Trope Talk. So I searched Trope Talk and it's clear that it's been talked about for years, there are multiple threads where it's been brought up time and again.

The problem is that the trope is poorly defined. Over at Square Peg, Round Trope, it says:

  • And I Must Scream is an endless Fate Worse than Death that cannot be escaped by any means whatsoever, not a catch-all term for things that would make someone scream in terror. "Any means whatsoever" includes dying, so any situation where someone could die of thirst, starvation, or from whatever injury is keeping them trapped in the first place does not count.

And the laconic definition for the trope itself is similar: "An inescapable and eternal Fate Worse than Death."

However, the summary for the trope also says that a real-life condition where someone is paralyzed would be an example, and even cites the example of famous scientist Steven Hawking. But I would argue that such a condition isn't a Fate Worse Than Death, it's a disability, and Hawking's contribution to science demonstrates that it's possible for a living person with a positive attitude to overcome a disability and live a productive life. Furthermore, death would be an escape from such a condition for any non-fictional person, so that rules out the "inescapable and eternal" requisite.

There are hundreds of works linked to this trope, and after looking at many of them, these are the ways I have mostly seen it used:

  • Sometimes it's for a character who has been severely injured, trapped, buried alive, or otherwise rendered helpless in a horrific way. In these cases, it should be changed to Cruel and Unusual Death, Fate Worse than Death, Go Mad from the Isolation, or another appropriate trope.
  • Sometimes it's used for a character trapped or suffering forever, which is how it should be used according to the laconic definition.
  • Sometimes it's for a character trapped in their own body, conscious and they can see and hear what's going on around them but they can't act. I would argue that this is simply paralysis, but in sci-fi or supernatural fiction it can be because of Grand Theft Me; some kind of possession by another consciousness that takes control of the victim's body, but the victim is still aware and helpless to act. I think Fighting from the Inside would be more appropriate, but if the possessed character is completely helpless then they want to fight but they can't, so people are applying this trope instead. In almost every case, the paralyzed character recovers later in the story, so it isn't "inescapable and eternal" and it isn't a Fate Worse Than Death if they recover back to normal.
  • Sometimes the above two are combined, and a character is dead but they can still see and hear and whatnot, even though their body is a corpse. This would be inescapable and eternal, if they have no hope of being revived later in the story. But if they are revived or otherwise recover, it was just paralysis.

To reiterate, paralysis is just a temporary injury. It isn't inescapable and eternal, unless the character is immortal and paralyzed. If we're going by the "inescapable and eternal" definition, Real Life examples shouldn't apply, because death would be an escape for anyone.

I don't know who wrote the Square Peg, Round Trope definition, or who wrote the laconic definition, or who wrote the trope summary. The laconic and the Square Peg Round Trope match up fine, but the trope summary itself brings up the paralysis angle, which might be part of the reason why it's misused so much for a character who is simply paralyzed, or who becomes helpless while something horrifying happens to them.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#25: Nov 6th 2024 at 11:17:41 AM

asterisk, which means it needs "extra discussion"

Well, kinda. What it really needs is a Wick Check. People tried but it's confusing to sort examples for.

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