With Wonder Woman, it was okay, because it was a DC movie and Gal Gadot has never said anything "problematic" to them (i.e. "you should hire more women and people of color"). For Black Panther, eventually they backed off because they didn't want to be seen as racist. Criticizing a movie as critically acclaimed and well-received as Black Panther would have immediately flagged their arguments as "bad faith."
Captain Marvel, on the other hand, had a more mixed critical reception and a lead actress who said things that could more easily be taken out of context. It was the perfect storm for them — and then it made over a billion dollars, which proved that they don't matter, that people will see films even if they come out against them or the actress.
So they are doing it now because of two things: money and spite. They hate the fact that the film succeeded, because they thought they had power and this proved that they didn't.
Oh, there was a LOT of sh... regarding Wonder Woman. The same people who are now declaring her the best example of a female lead comic book movie were complaining that her movie was "overrated" beforehand.
I also wouldn't say that the reception of Captain Marvel was all that mixed. It got basically the same kind of reviews most MCU movies get. But Captain Marvel is part of the MCU, while Wonder Woman was the first watchable movie in the DCEU.
But yeah, this is largely spite. They are desperate to maintain the illusion that they have any kind of power.
Edited by Swanpride on Jun 6th 2019 at 9:17:56 AM
Would it be wrong to say that I didn't really care much for Captain Marvel due to feeling that the main character was just dull to watch, even without taking into account Larson's comments (though they certainly didn't help)? I consider it to be one of the weaker MCU movies, though it isn't quite on the level of IM 2 or TDW.
Edited by LDragon2 on Jun 6th 2019 at 12:26:04 PM
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I have said it before: If someone really feels indifferent about the character, so be it, it is the constant bashing of the character which is not okay. Nobody connects with every character out there. Though, if you say that "her comments didn't help" I am wondering if you ever bothered to actually watch her whole speech, or if you bought into the outrage over what she supposedly said. Because he comments are absolutely uncontroversial for people who actually listened to her and are aware that she made this speech during an event which was ALL about supporting women in Hollywood.
Yeah, you clearly consumed too much fake outrage news. Yes, the MCU is supposed to become more diverse. Yes, Captain Marvel is an important member of the new generation of heroes. That doesn't mean that she is automatically more important than the others. Plus, why shouldn't she be the face of the MCU? She is called Captain MARVEL after all.
Edited by Swanpride on Jun 6th 2019 at 12:44:01 PM
She's just not as interesting as the other heroes, and I question the decision to make her the new face of Marvel as opposed to Black Panther or Spider Man.
She is NOT intended to be the new face of the MCU; that's a rumor. Kevin Feige's exact words were that she "would play a big role in future movies" (which makes sense given she is basically gonna be the link to space) And people interpreted it as "she's gonna be the new face of the MCU". In fact what we know so far suggests that Spider-Man is gonna be the new face of the MCU and that was the intention all along.
Also I stand by my point she is actually more interesting than people give her credit for. She may not be the most interesting, but she was far from dull, and she had an actual personality.
Edited by Theokal3 on Jun 6th 2019 at 9:52:37 PM
As I JUST explained another troper in a PM, Mau Ler is clearly influenced by Anti-SJW talking points. Plus, he is in general mostly meh on the MCU as a whole. Infinity War was the exception, but even THAT review was so full of nit-picking, I had no idea what he even liked about it in the end.
I am ready to bet that the storyline of Far From Home will be that Peter TRIES to go that route and then realizes that it isn't for him.
Edited by Swanpride on Jun 6th 2019 at 12:53:13 PM
I don't think so, Mau Ler isn't really that direct, usually. But then, he might have tweeted something out I missed. He isn't quite part of the Anti-SJW crowd as far as I can tell, he just often parrots their BS. The downfall of a "rationale" so to speak. Who objectively decided that his opinion of a movie is objectively the right one.
I fear this will be brought up again and again. There will always be people who got influenced by their BS one way or another and end up in this forum eventually to test the waters.
Edited by Swanpride on Jun 6th 2019 at 1:17:16 AM
I mean, I found Carol a bit vanilla and cookie-cutter, safe kind of hero (good person who does the right thing, has a few "good" flaws) in a time where the MCU has run that well dry. Possibly another one of the reasons people describe this film as Phase One-like.
But I chalked it up to a mix of the story being told (amnesia can do that to you) and the fact that I no longer find You Go, Girl! a viable form of characterization on its own. Endgame couldn't push her character anywhere further because it was written before they finished her solo film. I'm hoping sequels will be able to give her more room to expand. Thor wasn't particularly engaging in his first two films either.
To be honest T'Challa is also a little vanilla, but his film benefited from a stronger supporting cast and not needing him to carry the entire film on the weight of his shoulders the way this one does on Carol. So it does feel like most of Carol's problems as a character stem from the film itself. So I'm hoping either there's some change of staff for the sequel or at least a push for the directors to take more risks next time around.
Also, not that anyone's done it yet, but please don't jump on me as misguided or suffering from internalized misogyny for finding her less interesting, or that I just don't understand her correctly. I've seen some people get defensive enough to argue against anyone with a more cynical view of the movie even when they liked it, and hopefully you should know that I'm arguing from a position of good faith.
Edited by AlleyOop on Jun 6th 2019 at 4:42:06 AM
I just love her confidence and her dry sense of humour. Plus, I have a thing for stubborn characters who just want to do the right thing. That's why I like Steve and Bucky so much, too. Selflessness is a very underrated character trait in a hero nowadays
Edited by Swanpride on Jun 6th 2019 at 1:41:23 AM
The weakness of Captain Marvel is pretty much what you would expect to find in a Phase One Marvel Movie. Not bad for an Origin Story during 2008-2012 but at this current point of the MCU, the bar is set really high. It's also something I heard about Doctor Strange as well. Not bad for a Phase One Marvel movie, but it could have been much, much more after Civil War.
But enough about that. I would really like to see more of how Captain Marvel would integrate herself with the Avengers considering the relative low screen time she had in Endgame.
It's not what you would expect to see in a Phase one movie, it is what you would expect to see in an origin movie. In fact, it is actually better than most of them.
When you introduce a new character, there is just a LOT you have to set-up. In Captain Marvel case that includes her backstory, Shield, the Kree, the Skrull and how the whole thing fits into the larger universe. That is a LOT.
I do find people (not completely unjustifiably) calling the film formulaic when it specifically goes out it's way to break the formula in a few key points (like the final confrontation with Rogg) but I will say I think the film was extra surprising for me because of the way it plays with expectations of comic fans. Skrulls, Mar Vell, even the 90's setting. They're not subversions I expected to see.
I cant blame the film for playing it safe in other ways though. It being good was more important than trying to be great.
You are not alone.In my opinion Doctor Strange would be mediocre even by the standards of the Phase One movies due to its weak script, although the effects would make it good for a pre-MCU era film. Captain Marvel would knock people off their seats if it came out in Phase One and would probably still fare OK in Phase Two. Society Marches On might be a contributing factor to why it might not feel as fresh as it could.
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That's what a Phase One movie is (except for Iron Man 2, but even then it introduced Black Widow). Origin stories for the people that will make the first Avengers.
Regardless, I think having too many Superhero origin films can create a fatigue, which is one of the reasons why Spider-Man Homecoming was well-received for not being another Spider-Man origin story. Same thing for Black Panther. He was already Black Panther and the movie is more about the arrival of Killmonger than how T'Challa became Black Panther.
Sometimes I wonder what the reception of the movie would have been had the film production not been delayed for years by a certain Marvel executive. Maybe we would have gotten a sequel and a larger role for Captain Marvel in Endgame...
Edited by Shadao on Jun 6th 2019 at 2:09:00 AM
But here is the thing: I have no idea whatsoever to which movie I should compare Captain Marvel. Yes, it is an origin movie, except it kind of is not because we discover the origin along with the character. Yes, it is a fish out of water story, except that it doesn't really play the usual tropes. It even turns the whole "hero looses something and hence doubts his own abilities until he realise that his power was always his to wield" trope on its head by having Carol break through the inhibitor.
I like it for two reasons: It was a really unpredictable movie during the first watch, and I like unpredictable…and that it was so unpredictable shows that it wasn't really all that formulaic outside of the ways all Comic book movies are kind of formulaic. And second, thematically it is arguably one of the strongest MCU movie.
Captain America and Black Panther feel like the only debut films to really break out of that mold. Captain America because it's a period piece from a well-established genre for a hero with a relatively grounded powerset so it doesn't need a ton of setup, and thus can focus on being a strong character study (although it flounders on the third act in a way other origin movies don't). Black Panther because it already let Civil War do a lot of the setup so it could immediately cut to the interesting material right off the bat. Meanwhile Captain Marvel is a very solid origin movie, but despite offering a few new twists here and there it feels like a refinement rather than a true evolution of that sort of film.
Edited by AlleyOop on Jun 6th 2019 at 5:16:01 AM

Currently I am mostly focussing on not allowing this nonsense to creep onto this side too much, and for this forewarned is forearmed. Thankfully so far most Tropers have proven to be pretty level-headed about it or at least headed the warnings at the top of the Captain Marvel editing page, but I just clashed with someone who apparently really wanted to sneak the idea that Carol is a "designated hero" through the backdoor at the Endgame page, while also spreading some hatred. To quote the reasoning (not from the editing page, but from a PM I got): "People don’t like her bland character, her overpowered nature, the fact that she stole a man’s motorcycle (or in a deleted scene she tortures him for it)."
Check, check, check.
Though it begs the question were serious criticism for Captain Marvel starts and where it ends. I mean the "bland character" is something I usually allow to stand because quite a few level-headed people just feel that way, but the whole "designated hero" hero nonsense and the spiteful "enjoyment" of "Thanos punching her out of the movie" - I draw the line there. Yes, YMMV, but the page is supposed to portray actual fandom opinions, and I have never encountered this particular opinion outside of the Anti-SJW realm.
Plus, there is a huge market of sexists who want their opinion be reaffirmed out there.
Edited by Swanpride on Jun 6th 2019 at 8:58:50 AM