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Alright, added context to Disney, Don Bluth and Dream Works films to the best of my ability, leaving out the works I either don't know well or don't think actually fit as a Big Bad. I'm done for the day.
Ok. I intend to read all the definitions of related tropes and subtropes of Big Bad really carefully because honestly, it kind of makes my head hurt. Then I intend to start this clean-up going.
Maybe a summary of the descriptions should be added to the OP for easy referencing?
I think this thread should have that header or heading thing at the top of the discussion. Like the Zero-context example clean-up thread.
You mean, pinned? I'm sure we can holler a mod for help.
I think we should make a good version of the post. Combination of the OP and High Crate's wonderful analysis of related tropes.
How the sandbox look so far, guys? Would appreciate some help, since I don't know a lot of these films (at least not enough to write examples for them).
And, I agree.
Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 18th 2019 at 5:27:03 AM
Again, we need to figure out how Overarching Villain fits into all of this before we do that. I created the trope because people kept on having Big Bad and Arc Villain mutually exclusive while misdefining Big Bad as “overall series villain”.
And again, there are examples of Arc Villains that work for a Big Bad but are not A Big Bad.
Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 18th 2019 at 7:30:23 AM
The Arc Villain explicitly is the Big Bad for a single story arc.
For giggles, check out this "example" I found doing random page cleanups:
" * Big Bad: Lord Cassius, his mask is a skull and he's a big meanie "
...well, that certainly gave me a laugh.
Except that there are entries that contradict that. And I personally think that it should not be limited to a Big Bad. Arc Villain should probably be taken to a repair shop in my opinion.
Well, going solely by trope description, it's what we have for the time being.
So? We ready to update the OP and pin a post?
Highlander is totally screwed. Even the characters that kind of work are ZC Es
Kronos shows up for all of two episodes before dying and has no impact past outting Methos past and straining his relationship with everyone.
Jack Shapiro also shows for all of one Season Finale and impacts nothing once things go back to the status quo the next episode.
You could argue James Horton since the The Hunters are built for a while and their antics cause a lot of conflicts that even out last them to do the lingering repercussions of their actions.
Kalas does show up multiple times and cause a lot of damage in quest for revenge so you could make a defense for him
Ahrimin could be defended since it's Duncan's destiny to face him and the everything leads up to it starting Cassandra meeting him when he was a child and his defeat of Roland Kantos centuries later.
Liam O'Rourke is just once again a one-shot villain in the series finale.
The real question to ask is if those villains, any of them, create the obstacles the protagonists have to solve. If so, they count, but definitely need context. If not, cut them.
That's a really broad definition you could shoe-horn onto any antagonist.
By that measure being in the hero's way so he has to shoot you to overcome the obstacle of you being in his way makes every Mook a Big Bad
The Big Bad has to be some greater threat that's responsible for a large amount of the over-arching conflict like Hortan's hate for immortals and the murders he committed causing so many of the problems between The Watchers and Immortals that lead to pivotal conflicts
Edited by shoboni on Feb 23rd 2019 at 12:23:11 PM
It's not about being an obstacle, it's about being the person directly responsible for what the protagonists deal with. Mooks act as obstacles, but they aren't the ones in power, so they can't be blamed for what happens any more than a soldier can be blamed for acting on the orders of a general. The general themselves could be the Big Bad, however.
You might want to read back a page or two, it's explained in much more detail.
Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 23rd 2019 at 3:26:51 PM
Problem is by they definition you could call every Villian Of The Week that episodes Big Bad if they cause the core conflict of that episode.
From the trope description:
So yes, a Villain of the Week =/= a Big Bad.
I don't see anyone claiming different. No offense, Shoboni, but you seem to be arguing for points that have already been established and agreed upon.
Kronos, Jack Shapiro, and Lima O'Rourke sound like Not An Example for the reasons you list.
What are their "antics"? Do the conflicts they create drive the plot?
Showing up multiple times is good. Doing a lot of damage is fine. Does he drive the plot? Is he the direct cause of the conflict?
What does Ahrimin do that causes conflict and drives the plot forward? Is the plot resolved by defeating him?
Edited by HighCrate on Feb 23rd 2019 at 5:08:26 AM
Horton is a long and complicated one because he's a strange case of the indirect consequences of his actions having a massive influence. This won't be in defacto chronological order past the third paragraph.
He's a rogue watcher with a case of Fantastic Racism against immortals and first shows up when he murders Duncan's friend, Darius. This indirectly leads to Duncan finding out about The Watchers when he finds a Chronicle Darius somehow had in his possession and it leads him to investigating who wrote it.
This leads to Duncan befriending his Watcher, Joe and Joe's antics breaking his oath to not make himself known to Immortals causing a lot of internal political strife within the watchers. Further conflicts as a result of their relationship happen like when Charile De Salvo is killed by an immortal that Duncan spared after Joe explained he saved him in Vietnam.
Later on this all ties into Jack Shapiro because several watchers including his son were killed by an immortal and that almost sparked a war between Immortals and Watchers. Said immortal (Jacob Galotti) thought Watchers were out to hunt immortals because guess who murdered his wife? This leads to Jack murdering Jacob and almost Duncan before Joe stops him at gunpoint.
Then there's the time Hortan formed an alliance with Xaviar Saint Cloud and helped him cheat in fights with armed gunman and this caused conflict with Charile because Xavior hired one of Charile's old war buddies to spy on Duncan for them.
Then there's the fact Tessa (Duncan's mortal lover) died indirectly due to kidnapping by one of Hortan's men when she was shot by a mugger right outside the place she was freed from as Richie walked her out. The same mugger also shot Richie and awakened his immortality.
Hortan also paid a woman to get plastic surgery to look like Tessa to help manipulate Duncan and lure him into a trap.
Kalas is a bit simpler. He hold a grudge against Duncan for outting him when he was taking advantage of a monastery another immortal lead as a sanctuary for their kind to rest by following immortals off of holy ground and taking their heads in secret. Later Duncan fights with him and leaves him scarred from a throat wound that runs his singing voice compounding it more.
He crops up to start to hurting the people around Duncan to get to him but Methos sets him up to be arrested for the murders he committed along the way because he's not Duncan could've taken him in a fight.
When he get's out of prison via an escape he kills one of Duncan's friends and manages to get ahold of Watcher records he threatens to leak to the press to out immortals and this leads up to Duncan finally taking his head when Kalas uses it to lure him into a challenge.
Ahrimin comes in during the season finale of Season 5 and lasts into the beginning of Season 6 and serves as Arc Villian. He's an ancient demon that must be defeated by a warrior every 1000 years and Duncan is that chosen one.
He manipulates Duncan into killing his protege, Richie and and not only tried to trick Joe into selling his soul to him by offering him his legs back but tried to manipulate a mortal teenager into killing Duncan with an offer of bringing back his dead older sister.
His presence and the need to find the secret to defeating him as messes with Duncan's mind and his friends drives three entire episodes staring with the season 5 finale and running their the two part season 6 premiere.
None of the other characters can be argued as a Big Bad because they're villains of the week without zero to no lasting impact. Like MAYBE Kronos is an Arc Villian if you count the two episodes he was in as a story arc and the conflict of stopping him from enacting his plan to poison water supplies and Methos ambiguously fake Face–Heel Turn that's undone by status quo pretty quick after Kronos is dead.
Hoo boy. You're using a whole lot of proper nouns there my dude. I watched the movie with all the Queen songs one time in high school and vaguely know that there was a TV show for a while where any given random frame of footage looked like the cover of a romance novel. All these names and plot points you're slinging around? They're Greek to me.
If you can condense those walls o' text to the point where I can understand them, you'll know that you're on the right track. Let's see what we can do.
Horton - I'm seeing a whole lot of the word "indirectly," which makes me doubt that this is an example. Is this guy, like, some kind of wicked-smart chessmaster who knew that he could cause big problems for the heroes by taking seemingly small actions? Or did he just sort of muck things up by accident even though he's actually kinda small-time?
Kalas - Okay, so this dude killed a lot of people and then did some blackmail juju to lure the hero into a fight? This is what I'm getting from this, does that sound right? Okay, fine so far. Was this the central conflict around which the plot arc revolved? Was the arc resolved when he was defeated and he stopped killing and blackmailing people?
Okay, this sounding promising. The problem the heroes need to solve is finding the secret to defeating this ancient demon dude. Great. Can you get that premise across in an example write-up, preferably one with better spelling and grammar?
Edited by HighCrate on Feb 23rd 2019 at 7:49:44 AM
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How well does it match the trope?