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Really a Useful Note: Name Order Confusion

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RamenChef Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1: Feb 2nd 2019 at 6:17:52 PM

Most of the article is just discussing various name order conventions, rather than their implications for a work,which belongs on a Useful Notes subpage. I think most of the page should be moved to a Useful Notes page, maybe leaving some of the page behind as an actual trope.

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#2: Feb 2nd 2019 at 6:50:40 PM

Yeah, the bulleted section in the description can be moved to a UN page.

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#3: Feb 2nd 2019 at 11:50:30 PM

Yeah, definitely Useful Notes material, especially when a lot of examples amount to "name order can cause confusion" without saying whether it actually happened.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 2nd 2019 at 1:53:35 PM

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eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#4: Feb 3rd 2019 at 2:19:58 AM

We are talking about moving a big junk of the description to a UN page and keeping the rest as a trope, right?

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#5: Feb 3rd 2019 at 3:04:20 AM

[up]That's at least not what I was trying to say. The "this thing might happen" examples I mentioned are Not a Trope; trope examples are supposed to demonstrate that a thing does happen, hence why I'm in favor of a complete Useful Notes move.

Edit: The two on-page Music examples examples say little more than "these people's home country doesn't use Western name ordering, nor do their websites".

Edit: I'm going to add the suggestion of cutting all examples and naming the resulting Useful Notes page Name Order Conventions instead of retaining the "Confusion" part. If there's an actual trope here, I think TLP would be the best option, since having only 94 wicks sounds like enough to put this in Not Thriving territory.

Edit: Too tired to do a complete wick check, but the first work page wick reads more like an Audience Reaction instead of describing in-universe confusion, despite this being classified as an objective trope.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 3rd 2019 at 8:31:17 AM

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Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#6: Feb 3rd 2019 at 11:45:11 AM

It is a trope though, this kind of thing happens a good amount and is often corrected on the spot. It’s a sign of unfamiliarity with the culture and often a lack of caring to learn.

Even Sci Fi use it such as Star Trek TNG’s intro to the Bajorans with Ro Laren’s appearance and the crew not being familiar with Bajorans and Riker’s contempt of her.

Often it is a Cowboy BeBop at His Computer too with people failing to google which is which or just being ignorant of eastern culture.

Edited by Memers on Feb 3rd 2019 at 11:48:41 AM

Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
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#7: Feb 3rd 2019 at 11:53:36 AM

Name Order Confusion could be a decent Audience Reaction trope.

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
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#8: Feb 3rd 2019 at 3:08:24 PM

It can be done separate from culture, too, with a "Bond J. Bond" mistake. I advocate for a split, but a new description would be needed for the trope page.

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#9: Feb 3rd 2019 at 3:11:11 PM

If this is a tropeworthy concept, maybe we should make an Analysis page instead of Useful Notes.

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naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#10: Feb 3rd 2019 at 3:15:46 PM

What is the tropeworthy concept here exactly? Is it like Spell My Name With An S, but for name order (inconsistency among viewers/translators on name order)?

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
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#11: Feb 3rd 2019 at 3:23:49 PM

Characters getting names wrong due to different naming standards seems tropable to me:

    Examples 
  • Osaka of Azumanga Daioh wondered whether "Blue Three" (Buruu Surii; i.e., Bruce Lee) had "Blue" for his surname, but Tomo pointed out that he's a foreigner, so his surname would be "Three" (which is Right for the Wrong Reasons; Bruce Lee was from China, which has the same name order as Japan, but that particular name for said individual is in western order). Translators usually change this joke because it would be too confusing for western viewers, in part because translated anime tends to reverse the name order anyway; we're introduced to Tomo Takino, not Takino Tomo. The manga adapted this by having Osaka and Tomo argue about (Jean-Claude) Van Damme. Tomo thinks the right order must be "Damme Van". The followup joke is also different — instead of wondering who Blue One and Two would be, Osaka wonders whether there's a Damn Car.
  • A 1974 film by Louis Malle is entitled Lacombe Lucien in the original French. The central character is a peasant boy called Lucien Lacombe; the title gives his name in the manner of an official document. To avert the confusion, a comma was added after "Lacombe" e. g. for the English and German editions of the film.
  • At one point early in Bram Stoker's original Dracula, the Count accidentally calls Jonathan Harker "Harker Jonathan" and explains that he slipped into his country's tradition of giving the family name first. Transylvania was part of Hungary at the time, and Dracula claims to be a Székely note  in the same chapter.

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#13: Feb 12th 2019 at 12:15:05 AM

Split off general examples into a Useful Notes, perhaps UsefulNotes.Naming Conventions?

eroock Since: Sep, 2012
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#15: Feb 12th 2019 at 3:37:44 AM

[up]While there are Useful Notes on there, they don't cover all languages covered on Name Order Confusion.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 12th 2019 at 5:37:58 AM

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Ulkomaalainen Since: May, 2009
#16: Feb 18th 2019 at 10:04:34 AM

For the tropeable part, which I do agree exists, we shouldn't forget though that Tropes Are Tools. So something has to happen with this naming confusion - the above examples of Ro Laren or Blue Three are good examples for that. Just having a name with a (to a westerner) unusual order is indeed People Sit On Chairs. All the real life examples (which many of these, like the ones under "Music", should be) would also need more than one instance of confusion, because otherwise the list could be full with "the same happened to Lastname Firstname", "and again the same happened to ..." and most of these cases should be covered under the general dangers under either UN or the new trope description (preferrably the latter), unless something really extraordinary happens.

And as I said, examples need to be in the correct section. Under "Music" I need something happening within the lines of a song (like a love song from somebody about starting off on the wrong foot due to this issue), not the names of musicians, which in my opinion would be Real Life.

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#17: Feb 18th 2019 at 11:16:48 AM

[up]I thought about it a bit more after reading this and I'd be fine with removing examples that don't feature in-universe confusion, while keeping stuff like the Blue Three, Ro Laren, and Jonathan Harker examples (Lacombe Lucien's title sounds more like a real life example on international distributors' part, since it doesn't happen in-universe). Shouldn't take long due to the small amount of wicks.

If this is done, the list of conventions in the description could be moved to an Analysis subpage instead of being moved to Useful Notes, as WarJay previously suggested. Do that and get rid of the "On this wiki" part of the description (since that's probably contributing to the People Sit on Chairs examples I mentioned) and I feel like only a little bit of expansion would be needed, since the parts of the description I didn't single out cover the main points.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 18th 2019 at 1:47:38 PM

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#18: Feb 18th 2019 at 9:38:11 PM

UsefulNotes.Name Order Conventions seems like the best location if we split it off.

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GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#19: Mar 6th 2019 at 2:14:33 AM

Should a crowner be made for this, since this thread isn't as active? I think options for making a Useful Notes page on naming conventions and limiting the current trope to in-universe confusionnote  shouldn't be mutually exclusive, since the latter would cover confusion in works, and the former would cover why said confusion happens. There's already a similar situation with decades having both a setting trope and a Useful Notes page, such as with Main.The Nineties and UsefulNotes.The Nineties.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 6th 2019 at 4:15:22 AM

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#20: Mar 6th 2019 at 10:31:52 AM

I agree that the options aren't mutually exclusive.

Bring on the crowner.

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GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#21: Mar 6th 2019 at 11:35:48 AM

I made a crowner. Hollering to get it hooked.

Edit: I'll add that this is the first time I've made a crowner, in case I missed anything.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 6th 2019 at 1:58:51 PM

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GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#23: Mar 7th 2019 at 9:27:36 AM

I was thinking putting the big list in a sandbox would be the best starting point if a Useful Notes page is made, then it could be expanded further if necessary. Modifying Name Order Confusion itself would just be a matter of tweaking the description and removing examples that either discuss confusion on the audience's part or don't discuss confusion at all.

Update from later: Both options have strong consensus, so I'll add that we should probably ask RamenChef for input on what to put in a potential Useful Notes page, since I didn't have anything in mind other than moving the list in Name Order Confusion's description to a sandbox and expanding the Useful Notes page from there before finalizing it.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 7th 2019 at 7:24:02 AM

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
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#24: Mar 15th 2019 at 9:53:26 AM

Crowner results:

  • Restrict has 12 upvotes and 0 downvotes
  • Usefulnotes has 11 upvotes and 0 downvotes

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#25: Mar 15th 2019 at 3:58:44 PM

Since both options have plenty of consensus, I have some ideas for what to do after the crowner is called.

I was thinking about moving the list of name order conventions to Sandbox.Name Order Conventions in preparation of the Useful Notes move (UsefulNotes.Name Order Conventions was suggested by both me and bwburke). This would make Name Order Confusion's description a lot shorter, in addition to providing a starting point for the Useful Notes page.

Someone more familiar with how to write Useful Notes pages and/or TLP drafts might want to expand the sandbox from there, since I don't currently have any ideas for the Useful Notes page other than moving the list to a sandbox. I mainly put that option in the crowner because that was the original proposal in this thread.

I should be able to help with any description tweaks for Name Order Confusion (including adding a link to the Useful Notes page after it's created) and example cleanup myself; wicks are just under 100, so the latter probably wouldn't take long.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 15th 2019 at 6:00:16 AM

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PageAction: NameOrderConfusion
6th Mar '19 11:32:59 AM

Crown Description:

What should be done with Name Order Confusion?

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