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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#151: Mar 26th 2020 at 12:32:42 PM

[up] Again, I don't get where the whole "Ron the Death Eater is a Subtrope of Alternate Character Interpretation" idea is coming from because they're different concepts. Related, but as-is, they're not the same thing. One is intentionally changing how a character acts in a fan work, one is taking a different interpretation of canon events. Alternate Character Interpretation can lead to Ron the Death Eater and a non-objective version of Ron the Death Eater basically is Alternate Character Interpretation, but the concepts, as they exist now, are distinct enough for them to not be directly linked.

As for The Scrappy and Ensemble Dark Horse, I brought them up because one of the main reason these tropes exist is because people either hate or love the character whose morality they're changing. So if the objectivity is removed, then you just have some examples of "people hate a character so they pretend they're evil", which isn't meaningfully different enough.

Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 26th 2020 at 3:36:43 PM

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#152: Mar 26th 2020 at 12:44:43 PM

[up]Fighteer said here that Alternative Character Interpretation is the supertrope to Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater. Strangely enough, the same post says that Alternative Character Interpretation should go on fan works pages rather than the YMMV pages of works that inspire them, which I don't think was ever a rule.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#153: Mar 26th 2020 at 12:46:08 PM

[up] Cool, I disagree with Fighteer then, I still don't see the connecting logic between the two concepts...

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#154: Mar 26th 2020 at 12:59:22 PM

RTDE page says explicitly that it doesn't have to be done out of disdain towards the character
That was added when Tharkun140 completely rewrote the descriptions of Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater based on Fighteer's posts. Before January 25th 2019, this is what DILP and RTDE looked like.

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TheMountainKing Since: Jul, 2016
#155: Mar 26th 2020 at 3:36:16 PM

[up] Yeah, that's a big problem. In the earlier version of this thread, Fighteer gave a definition of the tropes that directly contradicted the actual pages and Tharkun 140, apparently under the (common?) misconception that Fighteer's word is site policy, rewrote the tropes' descriptions to match. This meant that Fighteer (unintentionally) bypassed the TRS process and essentially (again, without meaning to) rewrote the tropes by fiat.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Mar 26th 2020 at 6:37:18 AM

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#156: Mar 26th 2020 at 6:33:36 PM

It's the reason why I try not to directly quote the description in any of these discussion threads, the wiki is not peer reviewed and more than a few times someone brings up lines I WROTE into the trope years ago, which feels like cheating.

Alternate Character Interpretation is ultimately rooted in the idea of reinterpreting who the characters are, and often it veers into the exact same path that Ron the Death Eater and Draco in Leather Pants occupy. I see the tropes as more like "Ensemble Dark Horse where fans ignore their flaws" or "The Scrappy where fans exaggerate their flaws," it's rooted in similar fan responses but the outcome is quite different. Examples of both Ensemble Dark Horse and The Scrappy are written much differently than RTDE or DILP, as there is a difference between liking a villain for their role in the story and wanting a villain to become a good guy.

Edited by KJMackley on Mar 26th 2020 at 6:36:36 AM

4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#157: Mar 26th 2020 at 7:45:11 PM

But even then, I do see cases of fans whitewashing villains/painting the hero black but not out of (misguided, unironic) love or (excessive) hate. It may be done out of a joke that eventually spreads around... (which is to say that "edit" reflects the situation more correctly)

And why do they have to happen in a "fanwork"? Forum talks, blogposts and shitposts aren't fanworks but they arguably tell us about fan behavior better than fanworks do. That is why, RTDE and DILP are subtropes of ACI.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#158: Mar 26th 2020 at 8:07:40 PM

[up] "Why do they have to be from a fanwork?"

Well, if you actually stopped and read the pages involved, you'll find that:

  • The entire second paragraph is talking about why writers might change a character from good to evil in a fanon work, with justifications ranging from not liking the character to wanting the story to be more interesting. If it's not specific to fanworks, this entire paragraph is wrong, as the trope wouldn't rely on a writer changing a character for the sake of a story, it'd just be fans portraying a character wrong.
  • "often, in creating Ron the Death Eater, a fanfic writer spins their canonical non-evil actions into evil acts"
  • The laconic reads, "A morally good/neutral character in a work is portrayed as evil or a jerkass in fanworks, often due to the fans' personal opinion of them."
  • The analysis opens with "Ron the Death Eater is when an audience member hates a character so much they are willing to portray him as evil in story or artwork."

So yes, this trope is inherently about fans portraying a character different in fanon works. Not about how they talk about the character in general— it's about fanon portrayals in fanon works. I'll go one further actually and also check out Draco in Leather Pants for more evidence:

  • "Sometimes, a fanwork will portray a villainous character in a more positive light."
  • "In some cases, fan material will play this further by treating the characters as less like the originals and more like actors who share the personalities of the original, allowing the villain to cheerfully bounce off the heroes in casual settings with their evil deeds forgotten or downplayed."
  • "And sometimes, the character is simply much more interesting or offers more storytelling potential when interpreted as sympathetic, while their flatly evil original counterpart was just bland."
  • "There was a single cabal of authors who created everything you know about Draco Malfoy being a love interest instead of a creep. Cassandra Claire was one of them. All fic prior to that had him firmly as a nasty bully. The Veela stuff, and him being smart and good at potions, is all fanon. It was called 'Draco in Leather Pants' back then, in, like, 2005. Now, it's just Draco's default, fanon personality."

So yes, these tropes are more than just fans choosing to interpret a character's actions in a certain way; it's about fans writing a character in a different way or otherwise portraying them differently in a fanwork, such as fanart.

I won't dispute that fan forums and discussions can be a great place to know how the fandom thinks, but all you'll get out of those discussions is who the fans think is popular and how they choose to interpret canon. You won't learn how they portray those same characters in fanon, only what they think about their canon characterization.

I might be outvoted in terms of RTDE and DILP being subtropes of Alternate Character Interpretation, I still don't understand how or why since this doesn't require a misinterpretation of canon events, but fine. I'll roll with it for now. Let's say that it is true, that I'm wrong; what does that actually change? How does that make these two concepts worth splitting, if not even the "happens in fanworks" point is necessary? They'd just be more specific versions of ACI, and in that case, they're so misused and complicated that we're better off not having them at all.

But they're not that; they're more than that. They're fanfiction trends, something made very clear by the pages themselves; they're not just "fans want a villain to be good". It's a step further than that.

Disputing this is to dispute the descriptions themselves, and there's no gray area at which the non-fanwork variant might hold up. Just because the page doesn't say every five seconds that it's about fanworks doesn't mean it's not, because otherwise you could make the same argument for any other page. There'd need to be an explicit mentioning that this can apply to any sort of fanon, otherwise it's not just fanon.

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SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#159: Mar 26th 2020 at 8:08:15 PM

[up][up]If it's being done as a joke or to be funny, then it's Memetic Psychopath or playing this trope for laughs. Now, I have noticed a phenomenon where characters get turned into villains not out of hate for that character, but because fans think the character would be more interesting as a villain. However, I think we should create a new trope to describe this and move those examples there.

Edited by SharkToast on Mar 26th 2020 at 8:08:43 AM

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#160: Mar 27th 2020 at 11:46:52 AM

[up] Seconding that.

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Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
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#161: Mar 27th 2020 at 11:53:10 AM

May I ask what's the difference between writing a fanfic of Neon Genesis Evangelion and writing a Sherlock Holmes novel, other than professionalism and the copyright status of the underlying work?

Edited by Brainulator9 on Mar 27th 2020 at 2:53:23 PM

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
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#162: Mar 27th 2020 at 12:06:26 PM

"the copyright status of the underlying work"

This is the sole criterion for whether something is a fan work or not. Quality is irrelevant. A fan work, by our definition, is solely judged by whether the creator has the legal right to use the characters, settings, etc.

Is this a meaningless distinction? It depends on whom you ask, but it is the distinction used by TV Tropes.

  • An original work is the work to which copyright first attaches.
  • A public domain work is one for which copyright has expired or never applied to begin with.
  • A derivative work is a work based on an original work in some way.
  • An official work is an original or derivative work by the copyright holder.
  • A licensed work is a derivative work whose creator has been given legal permission.
  • A fan work is a derivative work whose creator has not been given legal permission.

  • An adaptation is an official, licensed, or public domain derivative in a different continuity, medium, setting, genre, etc.
  • A sequel or prequel is an official, licensed, or public domain derivative in the same continuity, medium, setting, and genre.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 27th 2020 at 3:13:09 PM

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Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
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#163: Mar 27th 2020 at 12:43:56 PM

So where do such unofficial derivative works fall under if the author does give permission for others to write such works? Do they stop being fan fiction once the copyright for the original work expires?

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#164: Mar 27th 2020 at 12:45:36 PM

If the author gives blanket permission — in other words, waives copyright? Then the work enters the public domain and the concept of a "fan work" no longer applies. I suppose they would then count as "unofficial" works, but we don't really have a specific distinction for that. I wasn't even going into canon vs. semi-canon vs. expanded universe vs. fanon in the above list. That's a completely different issue.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 27th 2020 at 3:46:44 PM

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#165: Mar 27th 2020 at 12:50:18 PM

If the original author gives official permission and the fanfic author is making money off it, then it's an Expanded Universe. If it's just an unofficial nod, then it's Approval of God. And there's definitely no way we're going to change a page's status as fanfiction after copyright expires.

When it comes right down to it, "fanfiction" means "published on a fanfic site." There are Sherlock Holmes fanfics that could theoretically be published as original works and make the authors money, but they decided to publish them on a fanfic site instead. Fifty Shades of Grey was originally a Twilight fanfic before it got republished as original fiction. So on and so on.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
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#166: Mar 27th 2020 at 12:51:33 PM

Right, there is some fuzziness at the edges. That said, there is an absolute distinction between licensed and unlicensed derivatives — that is, where the copyright holder has or has not given permission. The latter is always considered a fan work.

Fifty Shades may have started out as a fanfic, but by using entirely original characters, it became its own copyrighted property.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 27th 2020 at 3:55:16 PM

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#167: Mar 27th 2020 at 12:51:48 PM

[up][up] I mean, I've written plenty of fanfics but have never uploaded them to an actual fanfic site, so that reasoning seems a little flawed; by your definition, the stories I've written are not fanfics.

Anyway though, the distinction between fan-work and "unofficial" but non-fanfic work is blurry; which throws another wrench into the issues of RTDE and DILP. Technically, if the copyright of the work expires, the fanfics will stop being fanfics, won't they?

Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 27th 2020 at 3:56:41 PM

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#168: Mar 27th 2020 at 12:55:14 PM

  1. How many works does that reasonably apply to? I can't imagine it's a lot.
  2. I would consider the original status of the work as defining how we consider it, not its current status.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#169: Mar 27th 2020 at 12:57:35 PM

[up]

  1. Not a lot of works yet, but I was speaking about the future, though it'll be ages before it actually becomes relevant.
  2. Alright, that works.

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#170: Mar 27th 2020 at 1:07:50 PM

I can write a story based on Felix the Cat since he was first published in 1919 and his author died in 1933. I can write a story based on DC's Captain Marvel because the copyright was not renewed. I will be able to legally write my own story based on Mickey Mouse starting in 2024. All of these are very much in practice examples of characters that have no copyright restrictions attached to them and yet are still in the public eye.

Not helping is the inconsistent lengths of copyright between countries... we need to work out what is "public domain" for our purposes.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#171: Mar 27th 2020 at 1:09:25 PM

Er, maybe the discussion of what is and isn't fanfiction should be moved elsewhere since it's a derail, the only reason it's relevant to the tropes we're actually discussing is because they're fanfic tropes, but...it seems like we should be discussing this elsewhere.

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#172: Mar 27th 2020 at 1:09:36 PM

[up][up]For what purpose, though? So we can define what works RTDE and DILP can apply to? That seems like an unnecessary amount of effort.

For this discussion, if we decide that these tropes can only apply to fan works, then the assigned namespace would govern. If it's in Fanfic/, yes, if it's in any other namespace, no. We can have the debate about what works belong in that namespace somewhere else.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 27th 2020 at 4:12:53 AM

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Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
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#173: Mar 27th 2020 at 1:33:26 PM

Yeah, my point of asking about the distinction initially was more in response to "fanfics aren't adaptations because they continue the story", what with trying to see what's Adaptational Villainy versus Fanfic Villainy/Ron the Death Eater.

That "public domain" thread would also cover things like the Spoilers Off rule as well as what is indexed under Public Domain and its relevant sub-indexes.

Edited by Brainulator9 on Mar 27th 2020 at 4:34:53 AM

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#174: Mar 27th 2020 at 1:38:11 PM

The intention of the author helps, as fanfics generally have more room to be creative and can play with canon as much as they want, while adaptations are trying to stay as close to the original story as possible.

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4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#175: Mar 27th 2020 at 1:47:27 PM

Well there's adaptations and then there's Sequel in Another Medium... (Continuation and Fan Sequel are fanworks too, right?)

Would our rules relating to fanfic also apply to, say, fan comic, fanmade songs or fan games?

Edited by 4tell0life4 on Mar 27th 2020 at 1:47:47 AM

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